When is MOTU going to include a Software level in CueMix?

TechSupport · Post by **TechSupport** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 2:26 pm

mhschmieder wrote:I am horribly confused by where this thread has gone. MOTU Tech Support has provided valuable information and has returned to the thread several times with additional help.

Yet now we are told that the MOTU 828 mk II does not have ADAT i/o??????

To clarify, I made an example using the 828mkII. "project" is using an UltraLite, which does not have ADAT I/O.

mhschmieder · Post by **mhschmieder** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 2:41 pm

Oops, sorry. Some other people had jumped into the thread, and I thought the Ultralite was part of the later discussion. My apologies if I sounded harsh.

Smokehouse · Post by **Smokehouse** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 2:53 pm

So to be clear: The CueMix function only mixes INPUTS. To include and OUTPUT in the mix, one has to physically loop that output back into an input, at which time it can be mixed.

The request is, for some future MOTU products, that the DSP / CueMix function include all inputs and outputs as possible sources for bus mixing.

Can we move on?

project · Post by **project** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 3:47 pm

sorry smokehouse but that is not what i want.

I just want software control over the main vol knob on the ultralite.
Software control over the on/off function would be cool too!

Smokehouse · Post by **Smokehouse** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 6:25 pm

My bad. Software control over the Main Out volume sounds like a very reasonable request. And if MOTU really put there minds to it, it would be a firmware upgrade, not a hardware design change.

I wish this was all Open Source. Then we could just reach right in there and fix it ourselves.

- Smokie

arth · Post by **arth** » Fri Jun 09, 2006 7:23 pm

A way to control the output volume would be nice, yes.

I'd also think that when you have "CueMix Input Includes Computer Output" selected, the logical thing to assume would be that the "MUTE" button would mute also the computer output?
Or does "CueMix Input Includes Computer Output" mean something different from what I think?

Also, how come ASIO output always shows up on the BUS 1 mix meter in CueMix (where it has no place, since it's not part of the mix) but not BUS 2-4 (which is inconsistent), nor on the output meters on the device itself (which is wrong)?

Yeah, a minor revamp of CueMix wouldn't be something I'm opposed to. Don't get me wrong, it's better than most mixers out there, but there are a few things to improve, especially for controlling the computer output.

siddhu · Post by **siddhu** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 12:10 pm

I just got an UltraLite and maybe I'm going to have to sell it since the lack of being able to set levels of each output channel independently is a real bummer.

I can't believe that MOTU would not include such a basic feature in their CueMix software!

mothra · Post by **mothra** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 1:43 pm

CueMix does not control and has nothing to do with individual OUTPUTS..
CueMix can take your INPUT mix and will in fact give you control over the output of whereever your mix is going to. Thats what those volume sliders are for on the far right of the window.

You have volume control for each of your 4 CueMix busses, you have a master volume control on the MOTU, your sequencer can control the output level from each individual output on the MOTU.

If something going into an input is too loud, turn the device plugged in down just like you would if using a mixer or any other type of input.

siddhu · Post by **siddhu** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 2:06 pm

mothra wrote:CueMix does not control and has nothing to do with individual OUTPUTS..
CueMix can take your INPUT mix and will in fact give you control over the output of whereever your mix is going to. Thats what those volume sliders are for on the far right of the window.

You have volume control for each of your 4 CueMix busses, you have a master volume control on the MOTU, your sequencer can control the output level from each individual output on the MOTU.

If something going into an input is too loud, turn the device plugged in down just like you would if using a mixer or any other type of input.

Yes I know that.

My point is that you need to control invidual outputs at the soundcard level and not in your sequencer to calibrate your studio setup if you use the Bob Katz K-System for metering, mixing, and mastering.

This also hold true also for film post because you work at calibrated and fixed monitor gains.

It's a huge oversight that the software mixer that comes with the Motu hardware lacks this simple capability.

There are workarounds such as feeding the outputs from the UltraLite into a console and calibrating it there, or feeding the outputs into a digital mixer, but that just makes things more complicated.

I mean even M-Audio gear lets you set the levels of your outputs individually.

ben20uk · Post by **ben20uk** » Mon Jul 10, 2006 5:08 am

Im also for improvement of CueMix...

mothra · Post by **mothra** » Mon Jul 10, 2006 1:51 pm

I wonder if anyone has even thought (now Im assuming youre on Mac OS X) of one thing, AUDIOMIDI SETUP.
I hate to be a bitch about it but everyone seems to think CueMix is the be all end all answer to routing but thats not what it was intended for at all..

I cant check right now cause Im at work on a PC but you should have full access to all of the I/O in AudioMidi Setup..
This is the way it SHOULD work, this is what CoreAudio was intended for..

CueMix was intended for making up to 4 independent mixes of your audio inputs for say tracking, giving different players different mixes, you know the deal. CueMix, as previously noted, doesnt even control the Master outputs from the MOTU..
The CueMix bus should be completely seperate and unrelated to whats going on inside Logic/Cubase/Mac OS/Windows/etc, which is where things like the mixer in Logic, AudioMidi Setup, etc come into play.. For YEARS everyone has wanted control of the device to rely on the operating system, Apple finally did it with OSX and CoreAudio/MIDI so you dont have to rely on a half ass control panel from a third party..

Perhaps MAudio just cant get it right so they have to write a seperate app to control it.. Cant think of a single time any MAudio driver has ever been up to snuff, and I still for some reason own several of their products, MIDI and audio..
In a perfect world, the Mac OS would also recognize whatever runs CueMix and could take care of that as well, but this is where youll probably run into proprietary code because of the DSP and it has to run on MOTUs end..

MOTU is so Apple friendly they probably jumped at the chance to take advantage of the Mac OS Xs new audio/MIDI features.

Hell go get yourself a Presonus interface if the MOTU wont cut if for you and you wont even have to worry about drivers anymore... Mac OS will run the whole thing right out of the box on its own..
But then, will you get the nifty routing that CueMix does?? Doubt it the Mac OS doesnt seem like it handles this kinda stuff natively..

As for Bob Katz's method of calibration, well MOTUs got a large market to shoot for here.. Very few of the folks that are reading the ads in guitar magazines and electronic music mags and shopping at Guitar Center even know who Bob Katz is..
I dont think MOTU is going to tailor the device or go out of their way for that kinda stuff when 90% of its userbase wont have any clue what it is or how to begin going about it..

Now if they included some of Bobs books with the interfaces.. Hell we may finally hear some great recordings without being L1'ed to death again like we used to haha!

siddhu · Post by **siddhu** » Mon Jul 10, 2006 2:12 pm

mothra wrote:I wonder if anyone has even thought (now Im assuming youre on Mac OS X) of one thing, AUDIOMIDI SETUP.
I hate to be a bitch about it but everyone seems to think CueMix is the be all end all answer to routing but thats not what it was intended for at all..

I cant check right now cause Im at work on a PC but you should have full access to all of the I/O in AudioMidi Setup..
This is the way it SHOULD work, this is what CoreAudio was intended for..

CueMix was intended for making up to 4 independent mixes of your audio inputs for say tracking, giving different players different mixes, you know the deal. CueMix, as previously noted, doesnt even control the Master outputs from the MOTU..
The CueMix bus should be completely seperate and unrelated to whats going on inside Logic/Cubase/Mac OS/Windows/etc, which is where things like the mixer in Logic, AudioMidi Setup, etc come into play.. For YEARS everyone has wanted control of the device to rely on the operating system, Apple finally did it with OSX and CoreAudio/MIDI so you dont have to rely on a half ass control panel from a third party..

Perhaps MAudio just cant get it right so they have to write a seperate app to control it.. Cant think of a single time any MAudio driver has ever been up to snuff, and I still for some reason own several of their products, MIDI and audio..
In a perfect world, the Mac OS would also recognize whatever runs CueMix and could take care of that as well, but this is where youll probably run into proprietary code because of the DSP and it has to run on MOTUs end..

MOTU is so Apple friendly they probably jumped at the chance to take advantage of the Mac OS Xs new audio/MIDI features.

Hell go get yourself a Presonus interface if the MOTU wont cut if for you and you wont even have to worry about drivers anymore... Mac OS will run the whole thing right out of the box on its own..
But then, will you get the nifty routing that CueMix does?? Doubt it the Mac OS doesnt seem like it handles this kinda stuff natively..

You just don't get it, or don't want to get what I'm talking about.

I hate M-Audio stuff. The reason I mentioned them was that even a low end company like M-Audio has that functionality.

Metric Halo, Apogee, M-Audio and RME soundcard software ALL allow control over the outputs.

MOTU is the first soundcard I have used that does not have this feature.

Does this make there hardware worse? NO.

My point is that I do not understand why they would leave this out of their specification when it's prretty standard on all other soundcards.

mothra · Post by **mothra** » Mon Jul 10, 2006 2:29 pm

No actually I think all of my points went completely over your head.

The functionality youre asking for is there, right this very minute..
AT THE SYSTEM LEVEL LIKE ALL OF THE MANUFACTURERS AND USERS HAVE WISHED FOR FOR YEARS NOW.

Your wanted method of a third party control panel is 'standard' on sound cards at the moment because until OS X came out, this stuff wasnt really possible on the Mac OS.. There was no CoreAudio API or CoreMIDI API to handle this yet..
Do you remember OMS at all??
Now there is, and well we all saw how slow people were to get software out for OS X, we all saw how slow Apple was in making it live up to all its hype and promises..
With Windows machines, youre probably still going to need the extra software.. But Mac OS X was made to get rid of this problem and make everything work, live and breath happy in one place, the OS..

The other manufacturers are probably doing extra work to add this feature to their own drivers when it can be handled right there by the OS itself and every card should work just the same..

Me I like it just where it is, in AudioMIDI setup if and when i need it..
Its the same damn thing as having it in your nifty little RME or Apogee or Metric Halo branded driver, but it comes with your operating system instead, and doesnt have a fancy branded GUI on it..

Perhaps companies like MOTU, Presonus, etc are the only ones doing it RIGHT nowadays and everyone else is hanging onto a legacy method that was supposed to go away a couple years ago with the release of Mac OS 10.2..

Why dont you try it and see how well it works for you first?
Apple's put it there for a reason ya know.

project · Post by **project** » Tue Jul 11, 2006 6:54 am

i would like to say again that i just want software control over the main vol knob on the ultralite. I don't care if cuemix wasnt intended to do this.
cubase wasnt intended to have audio but now.......

arth · Post by **arth** » Tue Jul 11, 2006 3:14 pm

mothra wrote:The functionality youre asking for is there, right this very minute..
AT THE SYSTEM LEVEL LIKE ALL OF THE MANUFACTURERS AND USERS HAVE WISHED FOR FOR YEARS NOW.

For MacOS, that might be true -- I can't check, but for Windows, it most certainly is not. Simply put, the drivers lack the volume control part entirely. In Windows, it's the driver that has to provide the mixers, and MOTU doesn't.

With other cards that lack a master volume mixer made available to the system, the equivalent to CueMix will have one. An example is Doug Fetter's Delta Control Panel for the Delta series. It's not as pretty as CueMix can be(*), but at least it provides this basic functionality.

With MOTU, the audio level has to be adjusted before sending it to the driver, and the only way to adjust the master output level is through the knobs on the device.

The system level software for doing this just isn't there, and the MOTU API isn't open either, so no-one except MOTU can provide this functionality where missing.

(*): If using default dpi setting in Windows, that is -- else it just looks stupid, or in some cases won't even work. Whoever designed CueMix needs a ClueMix: Don't ever use skins without also providing a non-scalable bitmap font, cause skins don't resize according to DPI settings like system fonts do.

MOTUnation.com

When is MOTU going to include a Software level in CueMix?

me too