Advice for Coming to DP from Logic

[Shooshie]

The answer to that question used to be NO! But now that the sequence editor has "jumbo" sized tracks, it may be more practical in the SE.

Why? Tempo resolution. In the MIDI Conductor Edit window, you can size it very tall, with the tempo scale focused on the anticipated range of tempos. In other words, you could make your scale range from 126 to 160, for example. That would get the maximum vertical movement out of the tempo markers. The more movement you get out of them, the more accurate your beat placement. So, window height combined with zoomed-in tempo range = greater accuracy.

Now, the Jumbo track may be tall enough to do it. But truthfully I have not used the Conductor Track that way in the Sequence Editor, and I don't even know if it scales the same way. If not, then I'd say no, use the MIDI window.

Shooshie

[blue]

But truthfully I have not used the Conductor Track that way in the Sequence Editor, and I don't even know if it scales the same way.

It does, fortunately.

[Shooshie]

Actually, "jumbo" was not the right word. The new sizes are "huge" and "immense." Immense would be the proper size for the conductor track.


Shooshie

[Shooshie]

Just tried it in the Sequence Editor, and yes, that's the way to do it.


Shooshie

[quadrupolesmurf]

While there's some Logic-DP folks here having a very reasonable discusssion...

Does Logic enable easy MIDI control setup? I have a custom MIDI foot controller that's easy to set up in Live or Reason- even Stylus RMX (which has a brilliant MIDI implementation) but very limited in DP.

Will Logic allow:

Assigning MIDI controllers to Track Mutes and solos? - a biggie

Assigning MIDI controllers to Plug-in parameters, including 3rd party AU's?

Assigning one controller to multiple parameters?

Assigning MIDI control to MIDI plug-in parameters, such as Transpose key? (not sure if this is even valid as I don't know how Logic handles these things).

Assigning or routing in such a way to allow inverse control (a la Stylus).

Do you have to jump through hoops to get MIDI to these things like DP's consoles? I'd love to just have an overview of how this is handled in Logic as I have had very little luck researching this, so any info will be very much appreciated. I love DP but geez even Stylus - a plug-in - has far better MIDI controller implementation than DP, so I'm considering switching for that reason.

TIA
Phil

Phil.... you should check out Logic. The Enviornment allows you to manipulate/reroute/alter MIDI in amazing ways. It's not MAX, but it does have an insane amount of flexibility and customizability. I am very suprised to read threads like this and not hear these features brought up.

Just to give you a little glimpse of how Logic's Environment can be used.

I use the Percussion in dfh Superior. But the problem is the MIDI map is too extensive and I want to play the congos, or bongos from my Trigger Finger (which only has 16 pads). So, I have to re assign the notes being sent on my TF (to play just the congas) and create a preset on the TF to have congas and bongos, and other combinations of the many percussion sounds. In Logic, none of this has to be done on the MIDI controller. I can use a tranformer and change/alter any of the notes. Put a cable switcher in there, and now I can select between each of these transformers. So I have a congas,bongos, congas+bongos, congas+bongos+udu 'preset' already to go in Logic. Similiarly, you can have a setup to utilze the acoustic drums. I have the complete basic kit on 1 transformer, and separate transformers for the hihat and snare articulations (e.g. flams, ruffs, etc...). And to explicitly answer your question: Logic has a "learn MIDI" feature. Select a paramter in a VI, move your MIDI controller. It's that easy. 3rd party VI's can be accessed via the aformentioned Environment. It just requires a modicum of cleverness and imagination. I don't use Stylus, so I can't comment on it's use in Logic.

And using a foot controller like the FCB1010 isn't as easy as Live. But it can be used in a more flexible manner. Again, this might require a little bit of thought. But you don't really need to change presets on the FCB. It can send whatever info; just alter it in your song to do the appropriate MIDI messages.

A few people were advocating using Logic to host all the VI's. This isn't a good idea. Logic has an issue with VI's (randomly) dying (it's known as "sids", sudden instrument death syndrome). It's not a too frequent issue, but it does happen. (This is rumored to be fixed in 7.2).

Also: Logic has a huge learning curve. It does things very differently than DP, Cubase, or PT.

[Frodo]

Phil.... you should check out Logic. The Enviornment allows you to manipulate/reroute/alter MIDI in amazing ways. It's not MAX, but it does have an insane amount of flexibility and customizability. I am very suprised to read threads like this and not hear these features brought up.

quad:

Phil raised some unique questions which hadn't been raised before. The extent of one's MIDI routing needs varies from user to user, although I don't disagree with the advice you gave to him about the greater flexibility in Logic in this regard.

With that said, I have witnessed a team of Logic musicians who work together on a cable series. The MIDI setup for them was so complicated that they had to get one technician to make the setups so that they'd work on everyone's system. They downloaded these setups from an FTP server along with a list of further instructions for how to deal with anything which had to be done outside of Logic. It was VERY complicated, and if not done "just so", VERY finicky.

For me personally, I've found ways and means of accomplishing what I need in DP, but that doesn't mean that it meets the needs of anyone else.

A few people were advocating using Logic to host all the VI's. This isn't a good idea. Logic has an issue with VI's (randomly) dying (it's known as "sids", sudden instrument death syndrome). It's not a too frequent issue, but it does happen. (This is rumored to be fixed in 7.2).

This is unusual. I've experienced SIDS in DP much more in the past than with Logic-- even with Logic 5.x and 6.x. VI stability and cooperation in Logic is still among the biggest praises I give it. I mean, it really is rock solid for me, and I don't use that term often or lightly.

Also: Logic has a huge learning curve. It does things very differently than DP, Cubase, or PT.

Amen and Hallelujah on that! Everyone's method has a different madness (both users and developers), and what contributes to a steep learning curve for me includes the degree an app appeals to my personal intuitive awareness. The more natural it feels, the less steep the learning curve feels. Some people say that DP is difficult to learn, but from what I can tell it has at least as much to do with what they set out to accomplish and how they are most accustomed to working as it does with anything else.

Phil just may indeed reap benefits from using Logic.

[quadrupolesmurf]

Phil raised some unique questions which hadn't been raised before. The extent of one's MIDI routing needs varies from user to user, although I don't disagree with the advice you gave to him about the greater flexibility in Logic in this regard.

This cannot be stressed enough. Logic's Environment is not in any other program and allows you do some really cool things with MIDI. So using PT+Logic, or DP+Logic, is a great combination.

With that said, I have witnessed a team of Logic musicians who work together on a cable series. The MIDI setup for them was so complicated that they had to get one technician to make the setups so that they'd work on everyone's system. They downloaded these setups from an FTP server along with a list of further instructions for how to deal with anything which had to be done outside of Logic. It was VERY complicated, and if not done "just so", VERY finicky.

It can be as simple as creating a arpeggator, or it can be insanely complicated. My live setup is a little bit complicated and I wouldn't expect someone to download my files and expect to understand it in a few minutes. It's analogous to looking at Reaktor instrument, or C code written by someone else.

The bottom line is: be proficient with a few tools and you'll be better for it at the end of the day. This idea that you have to commit to 1 DAW for life, or have this neverending allegiance to a particular DAW is absurd.

[Frodo]

Agreed. Use the right tool or right combination of tools for the right job.

There was a day when the choices were slim, but the options we have in the way of DAWs and plugins have been born from the very needs of the users for different purposes.

Man, I wish you could have seen my friends' MIDI setup environment. It really looked like something from Dr. Frankenstein's laboratory!! (Or is that Frahnk-en-shteeen?)

[Dubnick]

And T:

You are the first person I know who's dared to speak up about something that has annoyed the heck out me with Logic-- the feeling of depression one gets after working with it for long hours. It's dark, gray, and dismal with tiny features that choke the screen and wreak havoc on my eyes eventually. It just leaves me exhausted after a while. DP is so easy on the eyes, and how one feels after working with it for 10+ hours in a row speaks volumes.

When Apple bought Logic -- I thought, "Hurrah!!!! now they will fix this CRAP interface."

Logic has always felt to me as if somebody in charge said, "We don't need any damn human interface designers! Let the programmers do it!" (and do you think that maybe one of the programmers was color blind?)

It is illogical, annoying, busy/clutter, dark and dare I say ugly. I too find it demoralizing to work with.

Sadly Apple just seemed to tweak things a little -- some nicer icons, that's about it. Maybe they were scared to alienate the logic user base. In terms of usability it hasn't really changed much since version 3, when I re-climbed aboard the emagic train. Too bad. Because there is a lot to like in Logic.

---

I have to say, I am a long time PT user who finally started looking at the other options when Digi released the Music Production Toolkit, and the completely counter-intuitive user interface of Logic was key in convincing me to take the chance on DP. The only thing I've seen that was harder to get use to has been Cubase (holy crap is that bad). I've got a buddy that has just recently made the transition to Logic from Pro Tools and he claims that learning and learning to live with Logic's ways is totally worth it and perhaps at some point I'll invest the time, but it was much easier to adapt from PT to DP. I don't get why Apple hasn't overhauled the GUI to be more user friendly - it's the most un-Apple app out there for Macs. I get the feeling that perhaps Apple's plan was to purchase DP and something fell through or that MOTU wouldn't sell. It's really unfortunate for Avid that they seem to view Logic as more of a threat than DP - as a longtime PT with limited downtime to learn a new app, transitioning to DP is waaaaay easier to get use to. Sorry if I got off topic.

[Frodo]

Not really OT.

The more we've chatted about the "look" of Logic, the more I've had to consider why that same look doesn't bother me when using Final Cut. I think that because there is always a point of focus (ie: the video) in FC, the drab interface does well by not interfering. I can actually tune it out visually.

But even if I use QT in Logic, the movie is not the main point of focus and the GUI just demands more energy over long sessions to stay with it, for me anyway.

I was also wondering if Logic would have more of that OSX look when Apple took it over-- then I started thinking about DP. DP3 was their new GUI, but I think that an OSX version was expected a lot sooner-- so the new look appeared and remained unchanged even through DP5. That's not a bad thing, just an observation.

As far as transitions from PT to DP or Logic go, two people using PT could have different needs. What facilitates the transition to DP or Logic is in some way related to the needs of the user. Yoda once said "unlearn what you have learned". I've found this to be true when switching back and forth between Logic and DP myself. I can't rely on muscle memory for reaching for the 3 key to reecord in Logic or any of the other key commands I'm so accustomed to in DP-- unless I take a week or more to completely reprogram Logic's key commands to match DP's.

But also, different people work differently and some people just find that Logic's "logic" is simply closer to their way of thinking that DPs. Conversely, DP has attractive intuitive qualities of its own that appeals to others.

For me-- I do think that going from DP to PT would be easier than going from DP to Logic (which I've done)-- at least as far as the learning curve is concerned.

I won't even start on Cubase.

[Shooshie]

I get the feeling that perhaps Apple's plan was to purchase DP and something fell through or that MOTU wouldn't sell. It's really unfortunate for Avid that they seem to view Logic as more of a threat than DP - as a longtime PT with limited downtime to learn a new app, transitioning to DP is waaaaay easier to get use to.

Actually, with all due respects to DP, which is my lifelong DAW of choice, I can see why Apple bought Logic when I watch the videos. There are about half a dozen or more videos on Apple's Logic site, and I recommend that anyone here take an evening and watch them. As it is now, Logic is VERY Apple-like. It's all about making it easy to make music if you're a non-musician. That's been Apple's theme since the Mac was created. Printing for non-printers. Fontography for dummies. Photography for people who only know how to snap a snapshot. Photo editing for those who have no idea what a grayscale is. Movies... movies... movies... Geez. Even I can make a movie without a movie camera. And now Music. Apple has made it possible for a music lover to create songs that rival what any producer in New York, Hollywood, Nashville, or Miami can do. I mean, it's almost repulsive that someone can use other people's licks and call it his own. But I accept that this is just the way the industry has gone, and that it's not going to go back. The genie is out of the bottle, and we honest-to-god musicians who know our scales and 3rds in every key, blindfolded and backward, WE are the ones who have got to get used to this and master the new tools, even if it seems repulsive at first.

Anyway, after watching those videos I can clearly see why Apple was attracted to Logic. It's all about loops, manipulating sections or blocks of music, turning a simple and goofy little line into a massive, monumental, fully-orchestrated song with the finest rhythm section in the country with no more than a few clicks and tweaks. That's Apple for you. Thank you, Steve Jobs, thank you Logic; we just have to adapt.

If I sound disapproving, it's only an inner resentment. I really do believe in skill, training, and experience that can only be won through practicing 8 hours a day for years on end. (yes, that's my background) But I am guilty of putting printers out of business with my laserwriter, accountants out of business with my spreadsheets and tax software, and photographers out of business with Photoshop. Heck, I've even put Kodak out of business with my digital camera! Kodak! My favorite film company. Makers of Kodachrome! I knew the day would come when a 12 year old kid could create something in 2 hours better than what I can do in 2 days. So, I've always been ready and willing to learn the skills of 12 year olds. And I've got something that 12 year olds don't have and can't have: I'm a bonafide musician who can do it all.

So, if you've been avoiding Logic, don't. Check it out. It's genius. It's not DP, and from what I can see it would frustrate anyone trying to write like Mozart or even like Pink Floyd, but man, it's great for the stuff you hear on tv. I really think they're on to something, and while you CAN do it in DP, there are many things that are just not the same. DP's architecture is just different, and is not made for that. I say that with pride, because DP fits me to a T. It's a musician's DAW. Logic is the DAW of choice for people in an advertising studio who want to whip out an ad with "music that sounds like xyz or abc" in about 5 minutes. If you really know your way around in Logic, that's very possible. Now I understand why one of my friends--who can't read music and isn't all that great a player--makes so much money doing jingles with Logic. A 12 year old could.

Having said all that, I have no plans to even remotely abandon DP. If I get Logic, and I probably will, soon, it will be entirely to keep up with the 12 year olds. DP is like an extension of my body, and I work fast in it. I will always use it for the bulk of what I do. But I say avoid Logic at your own peril. Like the printers who snubbed their noses when the Laserwriter came out, if you don't stay up with what's out there, you will end up stacking boxes in a grocery store at 3:00 a.m.

Shooshie

[Shooshie]

PS: when I say keep up with the 12 year olds, that's not a stab at people who use Logic. It's what I was talking about in my post: that even a 12 year old can produce fantastic sounding music in Logic, and they can't do that in DP.

Shooshie

[quadrupolesmurf]

I've always hear this "Logic is different than the other pro apps" statement. Logic is very different and don't think should be changed just to have the same aesthetic appeal. It should be very tightly woven into the FCS workflow, while not sacrificing any of Logic's flexibility.

Logic is far more difficult to learn than PT, DP, or Cubase. It has it's very own unique way of doing things and the same task can be done several different ways. Again, it's very malable.

But for editing audio, crack out DP. It's way better for that task.

[Frodo]

But I am guilty of putting printers out of business with my laserwriter, accountants out of business with my spreadsheets and tax software, and photographers out of business with Photoshop. Heck, I've even put Kodak out of business with my digital camera! Kodak! My favorite film company. Makers of Kodachrome!

Shooshie

"Mama, don't take my Kodachrome away"
~ Paul Simon

Yes, and we DAW users have taken a slice out of the recording studio market as well as the CD repro market. There was a day when we had no choice but to find a cheap studio and then send our mixes out to some company for duplication.

Enter the personal computer and home production studio. Give me a beat-- thwack. A touch of guitar and piano-- twang. "I'm gonna add some bottom so that dancers just won't hide"-- oomph. A touch of reverb and compression-- thwonk.

Photoshop for graphics, a $50 color printer, and a $1 blank CD-R--- heck. You don't even have to leave the house!!

But, more to the point: I'd like to spend some time later this summer developing the kind of project that might be better suited for Logic than DP. The hard part is just what you said-- DP has become an extension of my very being-- second nature, even. Refining Logic for a better "fit" is going to take some work, but it could be quite educational. Lately, I avoid Logic unless it must be used, but perhaps I'm at the point where I'm ready to like **using it** more than I do.

[jlaudon]

But for editing audio, crack out DP. It's way better for that task.

Being someone who bought Logic 6 months ago, and sold it recently (how complicated should MIDI be allowed to get anyways?), this was a huge reason I favour DP - esp. DP5 with the greater soundbite management - and after all, it all comes down to the audio recording for me - even though I do lots of electronic music as well.