Advice for Coming to DP from Logic

scooter · Post by **scooter** » Wed Jun 07, 2006 7:10 pm

Run Logic on a separate machine as a VI host. Best of both worlds.

That's a great idea. I've always wanted to try it and now that I have a little down time I'll give it a go.

And it's true that there are a lot of us out there doing just fine with D.P. and pretty much always have. D.P. has always done what I needed it to do and has always allowed meet to meet my deadlines. Even when faced with some weird problem I've usually managed a work around until I got the problem solved. I never experienced the MIDI problems in D.P. I have read so much about. Knock on wood. I bought Logic thinking that if Apple owns it then there should be a wonderful integration with the Mac computers. Now, I'm thinking that might have been fuzzy reasoning. I don't like the look of Logic's GUI, some of my friends do. I work mostly in the tracks window and graphic edit windows in D.P. and I could seem to get up to speed in those windows in Logic.

scooter

Shooshie · Post by **Shooshie** » Wed Jun 07, 2006 9:27 pm

blue wrote:Shooshie, you can always do what I do: Run Logic on a separate machine as a VI host. Best of both worlds.

Was thinking about that if I buy a new Mac.

buddhabelly wrote:Well the basics are there. The tap tempo that was linked to earlier works great. The beats from audio is a little disappointing, there only 3 threshold options and no option to adjust the beats inside an audio region.

The MIDI part works well. you can definitely define barlines/edit grids w/out affecting performance. Using detect beats from region (MIDI only) you all the note value options like DP 1/4, 1/8 etc.

If you'd like to read about what it says in the Logic manual, there is a PDF here. Make sure to option-click to download to disk or control click as it is a big file and will take time to load in Safari, and search for Beat Mapping. Should be on page 339.

I still have the same stance regarding the two apps. I like composing in Logic (mostly). But I like mixing and audio manipulation in DP. But I'm getting used to composing in DP.

Doesn't sound too bad, then. I trust the manual methods more than the automatic methods, anyway. I like dragging the barlines by hand. I sometimes do this with the Conductor Track open, which enables me to place barlines where the music isn't playing, simply by moving the barlines or beats until the tempo markers match. Then you know it's placed right. I guess I'd just have to try it in Logic to see if that would work. I wonder if there is a demo?

[hours later]

Didn't find a demo version of Logic, but spent the evening listening and watching their videos, then going off and doing some music of my own. (sometimes you just gotta go make music) I concluded that Logic appears to be a fantastic tool for creating pop music in a sort of "building block" form. It's got powerful audio loop features, and powerful instruments. But it appears that the workflow is really geared to that. I'm the type of composer/arranger who writes and/or plays every note. Just never got into loops. Logic makes me want to try it on a grand scale. I did it with Garageband, but hated it because GB wouldn't let me edit things easily. It was a chore to edit anything there. Surely Logic has a much more refined editing environment.

Maybe that's why I hear people say they like Logic for tracking, but DP for editing and mixing. [edit: formerly I accidentally typed in "garageband" for Logic. Freudian Slip?] Hmmm... well, it's got my interest up, anyway. I'll have to wait and see if I have any music in my future which could benefit from that sort of construction process.

Shooshie

Frodo · Post by **Frodo** » Wed Jun 07, 2006 9:35 pm

Shooshie wrote:Seriously, I doubt that I'll be picking up a copy of Logic soon. $1000 for a separate DAW just for speeding up the tracking of VIs is pretty steep. But it's an option on the table.

Shooshie

Hey Shoosh:

For all the trouble of running two DAWs at once with considerations of your wanting to run as many VI's as possible in real time, you're talkikng about networking two computers.

I'd put that Logic money towards a new computer and run DP on both. (There are ways of getting "no" latency MIDI and audio sync without any wrappers or extra hardware... that's for another thread, though).

buddhabelly · Post by **buddhabelly** » Wed Jun 07, 2006 10:14 pm

I'd never use Logic to track live players. Lots of people do, but not me. The studio I'm part-timing in runs DP with a sony desk. That's the tits, IMHO.

I like to compose, both with and without loops in logic. Even when not looping having object based editing is great for rearranging, variations etc, without having to play the section. Things like quantisation, automation etc on a region basis is a great option. And it can be undone or changed at any time.

Oh, and since I got logic, I haven't purchased too many instruments. I'm thinking all I really need is a good sampler and I would probably be okay with DP for everything.

And if all you really want is more VIs, I'd consider getting a winbox, or hell even a mac mini when UBs are all ready, and running VIs from there really. No reason to have two DPs (and the overhead) running on two computers.

Logic's different, that's for sure.

quadrupolesmurf · Post by **quadrupolesmurf** » Wed Jun 07, 2006 11:19 pm

It's suprising to hear a bunch of people comment on Logic and not mention the Environment. That feature is by far the most amazing aspect of Logic. Logic is also a bit more malable and customizable than DP.

Every DAW has it's strength and weaknesses. I don't believe that there is a universial application that is going to perfect for every work flow, or every user and musical situation.

Having DP and Logic is the way to go.

toodamnhip · Post by **toodamnhip** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 12:50 am

Shooshie wrote:
buddhabelly wrote:
Shooshie wrote:Looks like Logic can handle VIs very well. I have a question about Logic, as compare do DP, and would hope that a dual user with a lot of experience on each platform would answer it. One of the things about DP which I literally cannot perform my work without is the tempo/barline control that is available through the Conductor Track. I play in performances and move the barlines to match the performance. DP adjusts the tempos on every quarter or 8th note (I specify) to reproduce the exact performance I played, while maintaining something like "quantization' visually with the barlines. The quantizing (alignment might be a better word) in this case is strictly a visual/accounting sort of thing. It makes the music line up with the barlines, but doesn't affect the performance. In fact, DP gives you multiple ways to accomplish this, and multiple ways to alter the tempos once it's all done. I'm talking MIDI and audio both, though MIDI is the more important domain for tempo changes.

Does Logic have similar features? Can you move the barlines to match the music without changing the music? Does it have a working Tap-Tempo? And can you transfer complex music from DP to Logic keeping the barlines in place, and without losing any of the feel? This is probably the most important single aspect of a DAW to me.

Would someone elaborate on this for me? I might be interested in Logic at some point if these features turn out to be as well-implemented as those in DP.

Shooshie
I'm not sure I follow you. Are you using record/adjust beats, meter change or tempo? I'd like to know so I could test both for you, as I'm sitting here in the studio anyways.
I use all the above, and depend on every one of them. But I could not live without the ability to drag barlines to the musical beat. I almost never quantize the music, but always adjust the barlines (and beats) to the music itself. Adjust beats, as DP has implemented it, is one of the greatest--maybe THE greatest--feature ever added to a MIDI sequencer.

Shooshie

I think adjust beats to be really cool too, but I have a question?

Sometimes, it is tooo good...

I have had time where I really really match my click and barlines to an erratic guitar player for example....spend a lot of time on it ya know....

and thenn, the drums sound crazy jumping to the guys playing...
And I find that Tap tempo, in a manner which kind of taps around the EXACT timing is better and less jerky in tempo.
Have you everfound that Shoosh? That it is bettter to not quite follow a guys performance too perfectly?...

macsterdam · Post by **macsterdam** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 1:03 am

Shooshie wrote: Thanks for the link, and thanks for the screenshot of your setup as well. These are very helpful in determining whether it would be worth it for me to shell out the extra $1000 for a full version of Logic. I can't do the limited versions, because I use too many tracks. (that's another thing that has put me off of Logic; track limits!)

I'd like to point out that when although (I find) Logic to be much better at using VI's, when it comes to audio recording/editing, DP beats Logic hands down. So, if you do a fair amount of audio-related stuff, you'd better stick with DP, and run extra VI's from a (intel) mac mini.

Shooshie · Post by **Shooshie** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 2:36 am

toodamnhip wrote:I think adjust beats to be really cool too, but I have a question?

Sometimes, it is tooo good...

I have had time where I really really match my click and barlines to an erratic guitar player for example....spend a lot of time on it ya know....

and thenn, the drums sound crazy jumping to the guys playing...
And I find that Tap tempo, in a manner which kind of taps around the EXACT timing is better and less jerky in tempo.
Have you everfound that Shoosh? That it is bettter to not quite follow a guys performance too perfectly?...

It's an art. I don't mean that flippantly, as if to one-up you or anything, but if someone is playing in a groove, then the beat may not be in the melody. Things get pretty syncopated, and placing the beats gets pretty difficult at times, which is why I prefer manual to automatic any day. So, having gotten your attention, let me explain a little trick I use. It's SOO much easier in Consolidated Windows, so be sure to do it there. First, remove your sidebars from the CW, so that you just have the big middle portion. Stretch the MIDI Edit Window across the screen. Just below it, position the Conductor Track (note: DP has issues with the conductor track in consolidated windows, but that's for another thread. You won't be able to successfully save and retrieve this as a window set) Now, use your favorite zooming method to exactly match the zooming of the two windows: MIDI Edit and Conductor Track, so that they are perfectly lined up and exactly the same length. I use the Option-drag method, dragging over exactly the same number of bars. (Note: if you're doing this with audio, use the Sequence Editor the same way.)

Now, with Adjust Beats dialog open and set to your preferred method of work, begin dragging the barlines. I often do the first few with "set all following measures the same" (or whatever it says), then switch to independent beats until it starts getting out of hand, then repeat. Ok, now when you get to questionable spots, where you're not sure of where to place the beat, start watching the conductor track. If you place the beat too far one way or the other, you'll see the tempo markers jump in opposition to each other on either side of your beat. That means you just made a sudden jump in tempo. If the music did not jump in tempo, then that means you placed the beat in the wrong location. Move it until the tempo markers level out, and you've got it right. While I work with snapping turned on, I use the Command Key a lot to temporarily toggle it off in cases like the above.

There's my million dollar trick. One of them, anyway!

Shooshie

philbrown · Post by **philbrown** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 5:49 am

While there's some Logic-DP folks here having a very reasonable discusssion...

Does Logic enable easy MIDI control setup? I have a custom MIDI foot controller that's easy to set up in Live or Reason- even Stylus RMX (which has a brilliant MIDI implementation) but very limited in DP.

Will Logic allow:

Assigning MIDI controllers to Track Mutes and solos? - a biggie

Assigning MIDI controllers to Plug-in parameters, including 3rd party AU's?

Assigning one controller to multiple parameters?

Assigning MIDI control to MIDI plug-in parameters, such as Transpose key? (not sure if this is even valid as I don't know how Logic handles these things).

Assigning or routing in such a way to allow inverse control (a la Stylus).

Do you have to jump through hoops to get MIDI to these things like DP's consoles? I'd love to just have an overview of how this is handled in Logic as I have had very little luck researching this, so any info will be very much appreciated. I love DP but geez even Stylus - a plug-in - has far better MIDI controller implementation than DP, so I'm considering switching for that reason.

TIA
Phil

buddhabelly · Post by **buddhabelly** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 9:40 am

Yes. Logic allows you to assign anything to anything. You can even use the same controller on a track by track basis, ie pedal controls cutoff while working on one track and on another it adjust feedback.

toodamnhip · Post by **toodamnhip** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 12:44 pm

Shooshie wrote:
toodamnhip wrote:I think adjust beats to be really cool too, but I have a question?

Sometimes, it is tooo good...

I have had time where I really really match my click and barlines to an erratic guitar player for example....spend a lot of time on it ya know....

and thenn, the drums sound crazy jumping to the guys playing...
And I find that Tap tempo, in a manner which kind of taps around the EXACT timing is better and less jerky in tempo.
Have you everfound that Shoosh? That it is bettter to not quite follow a guys performance too perfectly?...
It's an art. I don't mean that flippantly, as if to one-up you or anything, but if someone is playing in a groove, then the beat may not be in the melody. Things get pretty syncopated, and placing the beats gets pretty difficult at times, which is why I prefer manual to automatic any day. So, having gotten your attention, let me explain a little trick I use. It's SOO much easier in Consolidated Windows, so be sure to do it there. First, remove your sidebars from the CW, so that you just have the big middle portion. Stretch the MIDI Edit Window across the screen. Just below it, position the Conductor Track (note: DP has issues with the conductor track in consolidated windows, but that's for another thread. You won't be able to successfully save and retrieve this as a window set) Now, use your favorite zooming method to exactly match the zooming of the two windows: MIDI Edit and Conductor Track, so that they are perfectly lined up and exactly the same length. I use the Option-drag method, dragging over exactly the same number of bars. (Note: if you're doing this with audio, use the Sequence Editor the same way.)

Now, with Adjust Beats dialog open and set to your preferred method of work, begin dragging the barlines. I often do the first few with "set all following measures the same" (or whatever it says), then switch to independent beats until it starts getting out of hand, then repeat. Ok, now when you get to questionable spots, where you're not sure of where to place the beat, start watching the conductor track. If you place the beat too far one way or the other, you'll see the tempo markers jump in opposition to each other on either side of your beat. That means you just made a sudden jump in tempo. If the music did not jump in tempo, then that means you placed the beat in the wrong location. Move it until the tempo markers level out, and you've got it right. While I work with snapping turned on, I use the Command Key a lot to temporarily toggle it off in cases like the above.

There's my million dollar trick. One of them, anyway!

Shooshie

I have a database for tricks and tips, I read what you said and got a headache..lol..
Thus, I will have to try it when I have a file in front of me as to duplicate it with "mind" alone, I'm rumored to have one, was insufficient...by the way..I started another thread on how dp's waveform editor is terrible, seems like all agree, thus, I have upgraded my editor to BIAS peak...what say you? do you have BIAS?

Shooshie · Post by **Shooshie** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 1:12 pm

Don't have Bias, but I should get it. I can't even locate the portion of the wave files I want to edit in DP's eaveform editor. What's going on there? I used to go right to it. Now it's like it dodges me or something.

Shooshie

toodamnhip · Post by **toodamnhip** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 1:17 pm

Shooshie wrote:Don't have Bias, but I should get it. I can't even locate the portion of the wave files I want to edit in DP's eaveform editor. What's going on there? I used to go right to it. Now it's like it dodges me or something.

Shooshie

to me, it has always pretty much sucked

buddhabelly · Post by **buddhabelly** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 2:52 pm

I'd try dsp-quattro or even wave editor before sinking cash into Peak. Peak has a dongle, not a iLok either, I think it's the same as Cubase, and it's damned expensive especially if you're not often mastering or using their specialized plugs, most notably Soundsoap. The compressors, eqs and such leave a lot to be desired, though the offline convolution reverb does sound fab.

Don't get me wrong, I have Peak 4 and have used Peak forever, but I'm thinking instead of upgrading to crossgrade to dsp-quattro. $149 and it can master CD playlists, crossfades all good tools for mastering etc and is an excellent editor.

Wave editor is a little buggy still and is a bit more at $250, but for sound design it's killer. You can add layers of effects or processes much like you do in Photoshop, and bypass undo at any time. Soundtrack works in a similar way and you get the bonus of Logic efx and excellent noise removal, efx envelopes (nice for design when you don't want a full DAW open) but, as far as I've tried, you cannot use STP as an external editor for split SDII files. Bummer cause I like a lot.

blue · Post by **blue** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 3:20 pm

Shooshie wrote:It's SOO much easier in Consolidated Windows, so be sure to do it there. First, remove your sidebars from the CW, so that you just have the big middle portion. Stretch the MIDI Edit Window across the screen. Just below it, position the Conductor Track (note: DP has issues with the conductor track in consolidated windows, but that's for another thread. You won't be able to successfully save and retrieve this as a window set) Now, use your favorite zooming method to exactly match the zooming of the two windows: MIDI Edit and Conductor Track, so that they are perfectly lined up and exactly the same length. I use the Option-drag method, dragging over exactly the same number of bars. (Note: if you're doing this with audio, use the Sequence Editor the same way.)

Wouldn't it be easier to use the Sequence editor and just show the conductor track and the MIDI track in question?