Advice for Coming to DP from Logic

[kelldammit]

i actually like the dark grey color of the logic scheme...but the rest of the gui leaves me cold.
i wouldn't really mind if you could "shade" dp just a little bit darker, the same way you can chose different track color schemes (optionally, of course!). of course, i LOVED the samplitude gui, too...so there's no accounting for taste, i guess.
at this point though, user interface-wise, the one reason i just hate playing with anything else anymore is the consolidated window...especially on a laptop. man, what a GREAT GREAT GREAT idea!
oh, and the folder tracks integrate into the mixer as well, so you can hide entire groups of channels you don't need at once, and focus on only the ones you do. i think this implementation is likewise excellent.
it's all the little things...

[buddhabelly]

My only advice is to forget how it works in Logic and learn DPs way. Don't try to look for the equivalent feature: it's there, but is 'different'. Otherwise it's frustrating. Same as any switch.

Do you have a MOTU audio-interface? If so, give Audiodesk a whirl and see what you think. It's audio only, but will give you a general feel as to how the mixer/bussing/editing/interface works.

[Frodo]

Vertical Zoom
Here's another case where I had to rethink DP just a little. A lot of Logic users are quite accustomed to the Arrange Window being their main work area outside of the Mixer before considering any of the edit windows. Yet, DP Tracks Overview is really well named. It's an "overview" which gives you a certain amount of MIDI and audio routing control while giving you a horizontal thumbnail of what general data is in a sequence. I've again rediscovered the Sequence Editor, which is also well named. The same audio and MIDI routing is there, and there are all sorts of zoom options in addition to first level editing options. Editing non-adjacent tracks is also wonderful in the SE.

While Logic's Arrange Window does a great deal on one page, DP's SE actually does a little MORE, believe it or not. The Tracks Overview becomes much more of a plus as a secondary screen rather than a hinderance for me: the SE has now become my #1 main work area in DP for all the reasons you've mentioned, vertical zoom being among the many.

Frodo,

I would be interested in knowing how you approach your workflow in the Sequence Editor. Except for audio editing I use it the least, because I just find myself scrolling too much. Do you have shortcuts for vertical zooming? I guess there are always the W and T shortcuts for zooming whole groups of selected or visible tracks. What do you mean by wonderful editing of non-adjacent tracks? Are you referring simply to hiding the in-between tracks in the little index column to the left? I like the sequence editor, as it has lots of options right at your fingertips. But I just don't feel as if I've gotten up to a good speed on it for MIDI editing. The MIDI Edit window is so much faster for me, as I can have all the MIDI tracks overlaying each other with color coding--which is a feature I requested repeatedly for over a decade before they finally did it! (though at some point they did tell me they were working on it--something you rarely hear from MOTU) So, I really like the multiple MIDI edit window, but I'd like to get some speed on the Sequence Editor, too. Any tips would be appreciated.

Shooshie

Hey Shooshie:

As for the SE, I had to rethink things a little bit for reasons you meantioned: detailed MIDI editing is indeed easier in the MIDI Editor. But, I'd use the MIDI editor anyway when I was tied to the Tracks Overview. Working in the SE at least gives me a "first strike" at the MIDI editing: some MIDI tasks can be taken care of just as easily in the SE, such as viewing note-on and note-off locations in case some quantizing needs to be done. Selecting notes for regional editing-- quantize, transpose, etc.-- are not a big problem. I just don't open the MIDI as often as I used to, BUT-- I still use it for 75-80% of my MIDI editing. It just saves on having to resize the consolidated window, searching for tracks with the scroll bar in the SE works as fast or faster when looking for tracks to edit-- as long as the individual tracks have been confortably resized.

I do keep at least two main windows open at once, and the nice thing is that one of them can be Tracks Overview and the other can be SE. A third window is at times open in Consol. Windows-- either MIDI Editor or QuickScribe, so there's no feeling of real loss. SE has just become sort of a "missing link" of sorts to the extent that it feels more like the *pitchers mound* surrounded by the other editors as bases. Tracks Window, I suppose, is still "home plate", but the running distance from the pitchers mound (SE) feels more equidistant to most all other destinies.

That's the new psychology, anyway-- however much it resembles an Abbot & Costello comedy routine--!!

Yes, the SE contextual menus do help greatly with resizing or hiding tracks for failry basic non-adjacent editing. This can be done in the MIDI editing window as well-- which adds the feature of its multi-track overlay display for simultaneous editing of different tracks. Tuplets are also easier to deal with in the ME-- but just streamlining the basic clicks and window resizing has lightened my load appreciably.

Of course, all of this depends on what aspect of the project needs attention. When mixing, of course the mixer has to be open, but by that point I'm hardly using the MIDI editor at all unless there are crucial details to adjust that late in the project. Neither do I use Tracks Overview that much during mixing-- relying more on the Markers side bar and the Transport for navigation.

Having just the right combos of windows has made a huge difference in workflow.

[Shooshie]

Looks like Logic can handle VIs very well. I have a question about Logic, as compare do DP, and would hope that a dual user with a lot of experience on each platform would answer it. One of the things about DP which I literally cannot perform my work without is the tempo/barline control that is available through the Conductor Track. I play in performances and move the barlines to match the performance. DP adjusts the tempos on every quarter or 8th note (I specify) to reproduce the exact performance I played, while maintaining something like "quantization' visually with the barlines. The quantizing (alignment might be a better word) in this case is strictly a visual/accounting sort of thing. It makes the music line up with the barlines, but doesn't affect the performance. In fact, DP gives you multiple ways to accomplish this, and multiple ways to alter the tempos once it's all done. I'm talking MIDI and audio both, though MIDI is the more important domain for tempo changes.

Does Logic have similar features? Can you move the barlines to match the music without changing the music? Does it have a working Tap-Tempo? And can you transfer complex music from DP to Logic keeping the barlines in place, and without losing any of the feel? This is probably the most important single aspect of a DAW to me.

Would someone elaborate on this for me? I might be interested in Logic at some point if these features turn out to be as well-implemented as those in DP.


Shooshie

[macsterdam]

Does this answer you question somewhat: logic info - have a look at figure 5

[Shooshie]

Does this answer you question somewhat: logic info - have a look at figure 5

I think so, at least in principle. I'd still like to have someone tell me how they compare in actual usage. DP has done this forever, and I'm very familiar with its ways. I can make my tracks extremely accurate in a very short time. I've even developed methods for precisely locating barlines that have no notes to guide them. I just don't know if Logic is going to be as thoroug, accurate or fast.

Thanks for the link, and thanks for the screenshot of your setup as well. These are very helpful in determining whether it would be worth it for me to shell out the extra $1000 for a full version of Logic. I can't do the limited versions, because I use too many tracks. (that's another thing that has put me off of Logic; track limits!)

Thanks again,

Shooshie

[Shooshie]

Hey Shooshie:

As for the SE, I had to rethink things a little bit for reasons you meantioned: detailed MIDI editing is indeed easier in the MIDI Editor. But, I'd use the MIDI editor anyway when I was tied to the Tracks Overview. Working in the SE at least gives me a "first strike" at the MIDI editing: some MIDI tasks can be taken care of just as easily in the SE, such as viewing note-on and note-off locations in case some quantizing needs to be done. Selecting notes for regional editing-- quantize, transpose, etc.-- are not a big problem. I just don't open the MIDI as often as I used to, BUT-- I still use it for 75-80% of my MIDI editing. It just saves on having to resize the consolidated window, searching for tracks with the scroll bar in the SE works as fast or faster when looking for tracks to edit-- as long as the individual tracks have been confortably resized.

I do keep at least two main windows open at once, and the nice thing is that one of them can be Tracks Overview and the other can be SE. A third window is at times open in Consol. Windows-- either MIDI Editor or QuickScribe, so there's no feeling of real loss. SE has just become sort of a "missing link" of sorts to the extent that it feels more like the *pitchers mound* surrounded by the other editors as bases. Tracks Window, I suppose, is still "home plate", but the running distance from the pitchers mound (SE) feels more equidistant to most all other destinies.

That's the new psychology, anyway-- however much it resembles an Abbot & Costello comedy routine--!!

Yes, the SE contextual menus do help greatly with resizing or hiding tracks for failry basic non-adjacent editing. This can be done in the MIDI editing window as well-- which adds the feature of its multi-track overlay display for simultaneous editing of different tracks. Tuplets are also easier to deal with in the ME-- but just streamlining the basic clicks and window resizing has lightened my load appreciably.

Of course, all of this depends on what aspect of the project needs attention. When mixing, of course the mixer has to be open, but by that point I'm hardly using the MIDI editor at all unless there are crucial details to adjust that late in the project. Neither do I use Tracks Overview that much during mixing-- relying more on the Markers side bar and the Transport for navigation.

Having just the right combos of windows has made a huge difference in workflow.

Thanks very much, Frodo. I can see that you get a lot of mileage out of the Sequence Editor. I think I probably would too, if I just stuck with it for a project or so. I tend to run back to my familiar tools too quickly in a pinch, rather than just working it out on a new path. Just knowing that you're doing it and liking it will be helpful.

Shooshie

[boonier]

Does this answer you question somewhat: logic info - have a look at figure 5

I think so, at least in principle. I'd still like to have someone tell me how they compare in actual usage. DP has done this forever, and I'm very familiar with its ways. I can make my tracks extremely accurate in a very short time. I've even developed methods for precisely locating barlines that have no notes to guide them. I just don't know if Logic is going to be as thoroug, accurate or fast.

Thanks for the link, and thanks for the screenshot of your setup as well. These are very helpful in determining whether it would be worth it for me to shell out the extra $1000 for a full version of Logic. I can't do the limited versions, because I use too many tracks. (that's another thing that has put me off of Logic; track limits!)

Thanks again,

Shooshie

Shooshie, pure curiousity - are you looking to hop over the fence for a short while ?

[buddhabelly]

Looks like Logic can handle VIs very well. I have a question about Logic, as compare do DP, and would hope that a dual user with a lot of experience on each platform would answer it. One of the things about DP which I literally cannot perform my work without is the tempo/barline control that is available through the Conductor Track. I play in performances and move the barlines to match the performance. DP adjusts the tempos on every quarter or 8th note (I specify) to reproduce the exact performance I played, while maintaining something like "quantization' visually with the barlines. The quantizing (alignment might be a better word) in this case is strictly a visual/accounting sort of thing. It makes the music line up with the barlines, but doesn't affect the performance. In fact, DP gives you multiple ways to accomplish this, and multiple ways to alter the tempos once it's all done. I'm talking MIDI and audio both, though MIDI is the more important domain for tempo changes.

Does Logic have similar features? Can you move the barlines to match the music without changing the music? Does it have a working Tap-Tempo? And can you transfer complex music from DP to Logic keeping the barlines in place, and without losing any of the feel? This is probably the most important single aspect of a DAW to me.

Would someone elaborate on this for me? I might be interested in Logic at some point if these features turn out to be as well-implemented as those in DP.


Shooshie

I'm not sure I follow you. Are you using record/adjust beats, meter change or tempo? I'd like to know so I could test both for you, as I'm sitting here in the studio anyways.

[blue]

Shooshie, I have used the beat adjusting features in both DP and Logic and find that DP wins that battle quite easily. Now, I must qualify that by saying that I have much less experience using Logic for this kind of task. But, I should also say that none of the Logic users I knew could show me anything better than the methods I ended up using.

I recently worked on a project where I had to use DP's Adjust Beats extensively and I was amazed how easy and painless it was. The project entailed creating tempo maps from audio files. In conjunction with DP's beat detection features, Adjust Beats was just a dream. First, I would analyse the audio for transients.In Adjust Beats mode, those transient markers turn into handles which can be snapped to the bar or beat of your choice by merely clicking on them and nudging them slightly in that direction. It was so fast that I could map out some of the less rubato passages in real time as the sequence played back!

I think all the sequencers can skin the cat, but in this case DP just makes the process easier and, hence, much more friendly.

[buddhabelly]

I get it. Piece o' cake in DP. I'm going to try Logic now. The wiper varies speed by the performance is the same. Cool! New trick.

[Shooshie]

Looks like Logic can handle VIs very well. I have a question about Logic, as compare do DP, and would hope that a dual user with a lot of experience on each platform would answer it. One of the things about DP which I literally cannot perform my work without is the tempo/barline control that is available through the Conductor Track. I play in performances and move the barlines to match the performance. DP adjusts the tempos on every quarter or 8th note (I specify) to reproduce the exact performance I played, while maintaining something like "quantization' visually with the barlines. The quantizing (alignment might be a better word) in this case is strictly a visual/accounting sort of thing. It makes the music line up with the barlines, but doesn't affect the performance. In fact, DP gives you multiple ways to accomplish this, and multiple ways to alter the tempos once it's all done. I'm talking MIDI and audio both, though MIDI is the more important domain for tempo changes.

Does Logic have similar features? Can you move the barlines to match the music without changing the music? Does it have a working Tap-Tempo? And can you transfer complex music from DP to Logic keeping the barlines in place, and without losing any of the feel? This is probably the most important single aspect of a DAW to me.

Would someone elaborate on this for me? I might be interested in Logic at some point if these features turn out to be as well-implemented as those in DP.


Shooshie

I'm not sure I follow you. Are you using record/adjust beats, meter change or tempo? I'd like to know so I could test both for you, as I'm sitting here in the studio anyways.

I use all the above, and depend on every one of them. But I could not live without the ability to drag barlines to the musical beat. I almost never quantize the music, but always adjust the barlines (and beats) to the music itself. Adjust beats, as DP has implemented it, is one of the greatest--maybe THE greatest--feature ever added to a MIDI sequencer.


Shooshie

[Shooshie]

Shooshie, pure curiousity - are you looking to hop over the fence for a short while ?

I might be interested in tracking VIs in Logic, but only if it does the "Adjust Beats" thing as nicely and accurately as DP. Otherwise, the hassle of keeping everything lined up would negate any benefit Logic might give me in speed and extra VIs. I have only one problem with DP, and I mean ONLY one: speed. I need to be able to track more VIs and even to run some live effects on them. I can do it by freezing and unfreezing tracks, but I'm getting tired of that. I'd just like to be able to run as many VIs as I need--live and unimpeded--on a good Mac. I'm hoping an upgrade to a dual G5 will facilitate some of that, but I get the impression from folks around here that I should not expect too much. Still, I'm using a dual 1GHz G4. Anything has got to be faster than that!

Seriously, I doubt that I'll be picking up a copy of Logic soon. $1000 for a separate DAW just for speeding up the tracking of VIs is pretty steep. But it's an option on the table.

Shooshie

[buddhabelly]

Well the basics are there. The tap tempo that was linked to earlier works great. The beats from audio is a little disappointing, there only 3 threshold options and no option to adjust the beats inside an audio region.

The MIDI part works well. you can definitely define barlines/edit grids w/out affecting performance. Using detect beats from region (MIDI only) you all the note value options like DP 1/4, 1/8 etc.


If you'd like to read about what it says in the Logic manual, there is a PDF here. Make sure to option-click to download to disk or control click as it is a big file and will take time to load in Safari, and search for Beat Mapping. Should be on page 339.

I still have the same stance regarding the two apps. I like composing in Logic (mostly). But I like mixing and audio manipulation in DP. But I'm getting used to composing in DP.

[blue]

Shooshie, you can always do what I do: Run Logic on a separate machine as a VI host. Best of both worlds.