about to buy an UltraLite, have a few questions...

jbuonacc · Post by **jbuonacc** » Fri May 12, 2006 2:42 am

hello. i've been reading through the posts, but haven't found all the info i'm looking for. i've recently bought a decent PC laptop and am just now getting into software after years of being a naive hardware purist (well, i started out sequencing on an Atari but have never used any 'modern' software until now). now i need an audio interface. so far i'm running Ableton Live, and am thinking about buying Reaktor and maybe a cheaper version of Cubase. within the past few years i've slimmed down my hardware setup to just a Nord Modular G2, an E-mu e4X, and a Lexicon MPX-1. after selling off my old Mackie 1604vlz, i bought a 1402vlz Pro which i've never been completely happy with. the mix of mono and stereo channels along with the lack of swept mid EQ doesn't suit me. i'd been thinking about a Soundcraft M8, but am hoping maybe i can do without it by using the UltraLite as a simple mixer and EQing everything in software. how well do you think i'd be able to pull this off? i'm thinking of running four outs from the G2 into it along with two from the E-mu. these would be used as both mono ins as well as stereo pairs depending on the application.

- if using the UL as a mixer, is it possible to control volume on two channels of a stereo pair at once using the cursor/knob setup?

- can it store a number of different routing setups, or just the last one that was used with the CueMix software? (i think this is what i read)

- how quick is it to get around the interface when used by itself?

- i'd like to try using the spdif i/o with my Lexicon as a send/return reverb/fx unit, is this feasible?

- is the MIDI end of it worthwhile, or should i plan on still using my midiman 2x2 USB? how is MIDI clock sync with it?

- i'll need to get an external HD eventually, would it be a bad idea to link the UL with it on the FW port or should i just go for USB 2.0?

also, my laptop is running XP Media Center Edition which i've heard not so good things about. thankfully, i haven't run into any problems so far but am wondering if anyone else has some say on it. hopefully it won't be an issue. here's some specs on my laptop, please let me know if you think i would have any problems using the UltraLite with it:

HP dv5040 15.4"
XP Media Center (sp2)
2.2gHz AMD Turion 64
2gb RAM (DDR 333mHz)
100gb HD (4200rpm )
ATI Radeon graphics card
(3) USB ports
(1) 4-pin FireWire port (TI chipset, thankfully)

any help would be greatly appreciated, i'd like to buy one in the next few days. thanks for reading...

-justin.

BradLyons · Post by **BradLyons** » Fri May 12, 2006 4:48 am

Sorry, Windows XP Media Center is NOT Windows XP or maybe I should say.... it just aint good fer audio! Go back to Windows XP first, or you're going to be asking for a can of worms. Don't go USB2.0, on paper it's faster but in real-world performance firewire IS better. As far as will this work? Well with the OS you have, probably not. Even then there are no guarantee's as we are dealing with a Pc laptop that wasn't designed for audio, but providing you change your OS I think you'll be fine. However, you do need to make sure you have an external firewire hard-drive designed for audio...again, NO usb!

Keep us posted! Oh by the way, REAKTOR IS AWESOME!!!!!!!!!

jbuonacc · Post by **jbuonacc** » Fri May 12, 2006 6:14 am

not that i really doubt what you're saying, but have you personally experienced issues with XP MCE and audio applications? i've heard some talk, but not really from any users. anyone that says they're running it has mentioned no real problems after optimizing, and i haven't experienced anything out of line on my end either. right now i'm able to get several tracks of audio and MIDI along with a handful of plug-ins running with no dropouts and decent CPU performance, along with running MIDI to the Nord and E-mu. about ~4ms latency on the stock soundcard, i believe, using ASIO4ALL (can't remember if i've had to up it at all).

also, i think i remember doing a search for Media Center/MCE on this forum and seeing a few users that were doing fine with it.

as for the HD - i've heard that it's not good to run an audio interface and a HD on the same FW buss, is this not true?

EDIT: just noticed you're from Sweetwater. seems that's pretty much the place that all these rumours stemmed from. the list on the site seems pretty off base, judging from what i've heard from several users of those products. (one small example being the statement that 'most NI products' won't work with MCE. the Reaktor demo runs perfectly for me here...)

BradLyons · Post by **BradLyons** » Fri May 12, 2006 7:10 am

Well, I'm one of the Sales Engineers for Sweetwater and I talk to A LOT of people everyday. Plus we have a highly experienced technical support department who deals with this on a daily basis not to mention I am always meeting and talking with various manufacturers so yes, I have some experience on this

chorga1 · Post by **chorga1** » Fri May 12, 2006 12:30 pm

About USB for hdd. It is better to run it on fw due to fw higher SUSTAINED throughput, however, at this point I am running my external hdd drive on USB 2.0 and I can stream 24-28 tracks no problem. So go figure...

I would not recommend running your hdd and soundcard on the same fw bus. For me it causes the Ultralite to "disappear/lose sync/whatever" with the laptop.

Ideal situation would be to have your soundcard on yer fw bus and get a pcmcia-fw adaptor card to conect your hdd to.

project · Post by **project** » Fri May 12, 2006 2:35 pm

i have an mpx-1 that i use with the S/PDIF and the Ultralite. it works great!
You can store as many routing setups in cuemix as you want, 4 of which can be loaded at a time.

I had a mackie onyx 1640 with firewire but got rid of it and now just use the Ultralite. and i can say i do not miss the 1640 at all. But i do all my EQing with my UAD-1's

i have a midiman midisport 1X1 but i just use the Ultralite MIDI now which did almost exactly the same on a MIDI loopback test in SX3.

get a compatible firewire card. Belkin FSU501, FSU503, FSU503V

do not use an Adaptec fireconnect or an NEC card they do not work at 44.1 and 48khz.

arth · Post by **arth** » Sat May 13, 2006 1:26 am

BradLyons wrote:Sorry, Windows XP Media Center is NOT Windows XP or maybe I should say.... it just aint good fer audio!

You should say no such thing. Windows XP Media Center is Windows XP, with a few minor and in this case irrelevant changes: No network login through a domain controller (irrelevant for sound), no XP Pro features (higher number of network connections, CIFS file synchronization, again irrelevant for sound), new software for capturing video/audio and playing DVDs (again irrelevant if you don't run it), and new themes and fonts (guess what?). The only thing that can make a difference is that MCE has stricter minimum hardware requirements, so you can't get away with plugging in old hardware, like a DirectX 8 graphics card or a 16 bit sound card.

The kernel, directsound drivers, 1394 drivers and anything else will be the same as any other 32-bit non-server version of Windows XP.
Windows XP MCE 2005 is for all practical purposes identical to Windows XP Home SP2 in workgroup mode with bells and whistles that you don't have to use.

Regards,
--
*Art

BradLyons · Post by **BradLyons** » Sat May 13, 2006 5:31 am

Art,

I understand your points, but through my technical support department handling client issues--we've seen and determined that, in general, Media Center has been nothing but troubles for audio hardware. In addition, I meet with many manufacturers on a weekly basis talking with some of their top-guys, also all saying do NOT use Media Center as it is not supported nor is it compatable. If you do get it working, great! But it's just not there at this point and time.

Case and point, I have a client that bought a TC Powercore Firewire and have had problems with it from day one. He wasn't aware he had Media Center, he thought he had XP. He claimed the unit did't work so we sent him another, same problems. We took that one back as well, tested both units and both were 100% perfectly fine. Months later we found out he had Media Center, immediately everyone from TC Electronic and my support team stated "that's the problem". Sure enough he wiped is computer clean and put a regular install of XP on, everything was perfect. This isn't an isolated incident. A recent audio hardware manufacturer who supports nearly every operating system stated emphatically to me... Windows Media Center does NOT work with our hardware, again this is also not isolated. Now this doesn't mean something will never work, but across the board it's not fully supported to work.

I'm only going to post information in this forum of which I have personal experience with, and fortunately I'm in a position to experience a lot of experience. I'm not saying I'm wrong or will never be right, but I do get to see things from a 10,000 foot view. I get to see all of the problems with what isn't working, what is working, what's popular and not popular, insight from manufacturers on new products and issues with those new products as well as issues with old products. So I'm just reporting all I've been hearing and seeing in recent months in reference to Windows Media Center.

This is from our Technical Support database just a few months ago, logged from extensive direct interface with end-users and our own product-testing.

Windows XP Media Center is a version of Windows specifically designed for integration of TV and radio features into the operating system. Microsoft gives the following information:

Windows XP Media Center Edition 2005, available preinstalled on Media Center PCs, allows you to pause and rewind live TV or radio, digitally record an entire TV series or program category, watch DVDs and videos, organize and play your music collection, and showcase digital photos.
Windows XP Media Center Edition 2005 makes it easier to access digital entertainment wherever you are. Here are some of the top features:

* Multi-tuner support (record two shows at the same time and watch another previously recorded show)
* Support for digital and high-definition local TV
* Built-in CD and DVD burning
* Windows Movie Maker 2.1 with DVD burning
* Internet radio
* Enhanced setup wizard for easier installation

(from: http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/medi ... n/faq.mspx )

Needless to say, these features, while useful for live media purposes, tend to significantly interfere with the vast majority of audio applications. Here is an (unofficial) list of software and hardware we have found to be incompatible with XP Media Center:

••• Digidesign Pro Tools (all versions).
••• Steinberg Cubase (all version).
••• Focusrite Saffire.
••• Lexicon Omega.
••• M-Audio PCI and USB interfaces (Delta1010, FastTrackPro,etc.). M-Audio Firewire devices have been known to function.
••• Edirol interfaces.
••• All MOTU hardware and software.
••• Most Native INstruments software.
••• Mackie Spike and Tracktion.
••• Novation X-Station series.
••• All PreSonus hardware.

Keep in mind that this is an unofficial list. These are simply products that we have directly, through our experience, found to be fully incompatible with XP Media Center. For this reason, Sweetwater can only support either XP Home or XP Professional.** These are the versions we use on our Creation Station series, and the only versions we have found to be fully compatible.

** NOTE: Windows 64-bit has been tested and proven to work with many newer software applications (such as SONAR 5). However, since at this time the OS is so new, not every program has been updated to support Windows 64. Hopefully, in the near future, they will, but as of this writing, we recommend XP Home or Pro.

borjam · Post by **borjam** » Sat May 13, 2006 9:31 am

jbuonacc wrote: as for the HD - i've heard that it's not good to run an audio interface and a HD on the same FW buss, is this not true?

Well, it depends.

The Firewire bus has a limited bandwidth. If the Firewire devices you use are good neighbors and your cabling is within specs, there should be no problem.

For example: In October we recorded a jazz concert with an iBook G3 (yes, g-three), a MOTU896HD, a Yamaha 02V (sending 6 more audio tracks to the 896HD via ADAT) and an external Firewire hard disk.

Absolutely no problem at 44.1 KHz with Digital Performer (don't remember the exact version, probably 4.5). Of course, the counters on screen were sloow to update, but in 3+ hours recording (we recorded a session at morning to test the setup) there were no hassles at all.

What can go wrong in a Firewire bus?

- Damaged/defective cables

- Bad Firewire card. These days, many computer peripherals are crap. They can work for a home user, but they are not acceptable at all for a professional use.

- Misbehaving devices. I have had a bad experience with a Powercore Compact that had issues coexisting with the Ultralite, and ended buying a separate Firewire card for it. It was not a bandwidth problem, but probably some sort of protocol problem.

This said, a Firewire disk from a reputable company, with a good audio interface, a good Firewire card, good cabling and a healthy operating system should work. Just be aware of the bandwidth limitations, and don't try to save too much on stupid things like a Firewire card or cabling. A 20 dollars difference can be dramatic!!

Regarding BradLyons' post, it's a pleasure to read a sound professional opinion here.

For what it's worth, I have professional experience in the design of reliable hierarchical storage systems. Some of my software/hardware has had uptimes of 1+ year, and I had to revoke the authority of the purchasing dept in order to personally choose SCSI host adapters, terminators and cabling in order to deliver reliable systems.

jbuonacc · Post by **jbuonacc** » Sat May 13, 2006 6:55 pm

thanks for the replies everyone, i'll be ordering the UltraLite this week. i'll hope for the best and see what happens.

Brad - i'm sure hoping to prove you wrong.

when i first read that list on your site, i was pretty worried. i then spent some time scouring the search engines for links between those mentioned products and XP MCE. i found that there were a fair amount of users that were running smoothly, even with some that you had listed as totally incompatible. every setup is a bit different, so i'll just have to hope that it works for me. if not, i'll be happy to admit that XP MCE has issues. i'd love to be able to try out everything on that list, actually. of course we know what all the 'added features' of XP MCE are, but what exactly about them makes MCE unreliable for audio work? this is something i've never seen explained. i've disabled/un-installed pretty much all the 'extras' and have seen no adverse effects on performance. also, i find the statement that 'MCE is not XP' to be pretty far out. they can't be *that* different, can they? i'm guessing that these companies that 'don't recommend/condone' use of MCE haven't actually done much testing with it? what is the REAL problem, besides 'it's got all this extra stuff in it'?

if i can get the UL running, i'll be set. that's all i'm really concerned about right now, everything else is going well so far.

EDIT:

also, does anyone know if it's possible to 'link' two inputs to be controlled at once by the value knob? ie - if i have the main stereo outs from my E-mu running into inputs 7 and 8, is it possible to select this pair from the front panel and adjust the pair with one knob turn? adjusting each individually is nice as well, but i think it'd be useful to be able to adjust pairs or groups with one knob if needed. any chance it can be set up to work like this?

what are some ways that the UltraLite can reliably be used as a mixer, either with or without the computer attached? would anyone care to give an example of how the i/o is routed on your particular decice? thanks again...

-justin.

chorga1 · Post by **chorga1** » Sat May 13, 2006 10:17 pm

Cool! Post your results when you are up and running. Plenty of users will be glad for the info!

arth · Post by **arth** » Sun May 14, 2006 5:41 am

jbuonacc wrote:Brad - i'm sure hoping to prove you wrong. when i first read that list on your site, i was pretty worried. i then spent some time scouring the search engines for links between those mentioned products and XP MCE. i found that there were a fair amount of users that were running smoothly, even with some that you had listed as totally incompatible. every setup is a bit different, so i'll just have to hope that it works for me.

You don't have to just hope -- you can improve your chances of success by turning off a lot of the cruft XP MCE comes with. Go through msconfig, services and the device manager, and turn off AV related startup resident apps, services and devices. For the services, you may have to not only stop services, but switch them from "Automatic" to "Manual" after stopping, to prevent them from restarting at reboot.
Also disable "1394 Connection" under Network Connections; if enabled (default), it will be polled every so often by XP to check whether another PC has been connected there, which can cause problems with firewire devices that are timing sensitive (like audio).

Regards,
--
*Art

project · Post by **project** » Sun May 14, 2006 8:30 am

also, does anyone know if it's possible to 'link' two inputs to be controlled at once by the value knob? ie - if i have the main stereo outs from my E-mu running into inputs 7 and 8, is it possible to select this pair from the front panel and adjust the pair with one knob turn?

yes!

jbuonacc · Post by **jbuonacc** » Sun May 14, 2006 9:14 am

sounds great that you can link channels, thanks a lot for confirming that.

arth - yep, i've already made some of those adjustments but there's still a handul of others i haven't even tried yet. i'm pretty confident that things will work out. then again, even if i were running XP Pro there's a chance things could go wrong.

i'll have more to say by the end of the week or so. thanks again so far!

-justin.

jbuonacc · Post by **jbuonacc** » Wed May 17, 2006 1:17 am

well, i'm happy to say that everything went very nicely and the UltraLite is working great so far. took a second to figure out the output routing number scheme. what is with that?

Brad - the information on your company's website regarding XP Media Center compatibility is inaccurate and misleading. i thank you for trying to help though.