I'm Dithering!

[stuartnorfolk]

Hi guys

I have been reading up a lot lately about dithering tools and would like to hear about your experiences with different dithering algorithms. I am in the process of purchasing DP5.0. (I am a first time user).

Like everyone, I naturally want the best for my sound. I want a mastering utility that allows me to use 'Track Marks' for dividing up audio into separate tracks (my material cross fades a lot and I normally bounce one long track and then mark it out later) - and the facility to dither down 24 bit/44.1Khz tracks into 16 bit/44.1Khz tracks.

I understand that DP does NOT allow me to incorporate track marks. This is a shame, because otherwise, I could use Waves Ultramaximiser, or Izotope Ozone 3 which offer superior dithering facilities.

On the mastering software front (rather than a plugin) I have been looking at Peak Pro 5 (which incorporates POW-r) and DSP-Quattro and wondered what your opinions were as to the relative qualities of these and indeed any other dither algorithms that you may have come across.

Stuart

[Shooshie]

Not sure what you mean by track marks.

I use Waves L1, L2, and L3 Ultramaximizers. The L3 is really something. Especially the MULTIMaximizer.

It may be just a difference of terminology. If you explain "track marks," perhaps we can explain how it's done on DP.


Shooshie

[stuartnorfolk]

Hi Shooshie

By track marks I mean Markers. The ability to divide a track into two or more subsequent tracks through the use of Track Markers. In a mastering program like WaveBurner or DSP-Quattro these regions can be dragged into a playlist as tracks in there own right.

Maybe it would help if I explained about the way I tend to work. I tend to enjoy creating music that contains movements which flow one into the other. I tend to bounce this as one long track. In the dim and distant past I have used a cutting tool to slice up this bounced track into individual slices or tracks, but experience tells me that doing it this way causes audio glitches. So by creating soft idents, or Track Markers gets around this.

Unless, of course, someone has a better way of working?

Many thanks,

Stuart

[chrispick]

FWIW -- I use Peak Pro 5 to master, dither and lay out song sequences (with crossfades and whatnot). I dither using Pow-R algorithm. And I premaster using UAD-1 precision plugs, Ozone and PSP VintageWarmer.

It all works great for me, given the kind of work I do. But it's not the least-expensive option for you to consider.

I will say that I'm no dither connoisseur. I opted with pow-R dithering because mastering guru Bob Katz seems to like it, and I was already comfortable with Peak. I don't know that I could distinguish different dithers by ear.

[matwell]

I haven't had a need to do this in DP (yet), but this is how I do it in Pro Tools.

1) Bounce the whole album as one long audio file, with your mastering applied. If you are bouncing to make a CD, then you are probably dithering down to 16-bit on one of your mastering plug-ins. Your bounce settings would be 16-bit, 44.1k and whatever flavor of file format you prefer.

2) I make a new session at 16-bit, 44.1k and import the new bounced audio file.

3) I split (or separate) the file into regions at the points that I want a new track ID on the CD.

4) I name those regions something like "01_Song Name", "02_Song Name".

5) I then select all of those regions and export them as individual audio files. Usually 16-bit, 44.1k, interleaved AIFF or WAV files.

6) Using something like "Jam" from Roxio, I drag all of the exported audio files onto a playlist, with ZERO time inbetween the tracks. When you burn the CD, the audio will play continuously.

Hope this helps!

[96khz]

To be able to define CD regions of an audio file. That would be great.

My workflow for an album is something like this:

1. Mix every track in its own project and bounce it.
2. Open a new project (mastering project) and import all the songs.
3. Put song1 in track1, song2 in track2, etc...
4. Adjust the spacing (timing) between the songs.
5. In the mixer, adjust the volume of each track and apply the necessary effects. With this method (a song per track) you don't need to do any automation just for leveling the songs. You also don't need to change the configuration of the inserted effects at the start of every song.
(Its great to have the Dynamic CPU Management for this workflow, as I can have lots of inserts in every song (track), because each song plays at a different time).
6. Apply Dithering (insert) at the Master Fader Track and bounce to disk.
7. I then have to open it in Peak (or similar application) just to define the regions (CD tracks) and then burn the CD in Peak or export to Jam and burn there.


There are only 2 steps in my workflow that DP doesn't do:
1. defining the regions (CD tracks)
2. Burning the CD

The first one would be very easy to add to DP. MOTU could use the Waveform Editor to implement that feature. This way, we could export the master audio file with the track regions already defined and burn it in Toast or Jam. Even better, if we could export this master audio file as a disk image (ISO, DMG, ...), we could use Disk Utility to burn it.

[stuartnorfolk]

Hi guys

Matwell - I have used a similar method to yours in the past. The problem is, as I said before, that, in bouncing all songs as one long track, when splitting the audio up (scissors tool), that because there is no silence between tracks, the cut has sometimes created an audible glitch. (This also happened to a clients work once as well).

Soft indents, or Track Markers get around this, but, I guess we can't do that without importing our audio into a third parties audio editor like Peak or DSP.

Can you create an image file on bounce in DP?

Stuart

[Splinter]

Matwell:

Your method is the same as mine in DP, but I just tell DP to add the file to the sequence on bounce and slice the master up in the same session before exporting each file. Works like a charm.

[Splinter]

The problem is, as I said before, that, in bouncing all songs as one long track, when splitting the audio up (scissors tool), that because there is no silence between tracks, the cut has sometimes created an audible glitch. (This also happened to a clients work once as well).

I have never had this problem unless I try to burn my CD with iTunes or I separate the song at a non-zero crosspoint. Neither of these problems are related to DP. I do continuous tracks a lot because I do a lot of live recording and this just isn't an issue in DP. But iTunes is another story. YOU CANNOT BURN DISKS WITH CONTINUOUS MUSIC ON ITUNES. Use Toast or Jam. All that to say, you can use an external editor, but you don't need to. I've been mastering continuous albums in DP for years.

[stuartnorfolk]

Hi Splinter

Let me get this right. Your saying that even if you cut a track in the middle of the audio in DP, that you have never suffered from clicks or glitches?

I used to use this method in Logic and was forever getting problems.

If that's the case then there would be no real reason for an external mastering editor, because you could just use a mastering plugin on the bounce down - ah, I'm just wondering whether slicing before or after dither has been applied would make a difference when chopping up the audio as to whether it could create glitches?

What do you do Splinter? Do you dither then cut, or do you cut the track up and then dither?

Stuart

[Splinter]

Your saying that even if you cut a track in the middle of the audio in DP, that you have never suffered from clicks or glitches?

... I'm just wondering whether slicing before or after dither has been applied would make a difference when chopping up the audio as to whether it could create glitches?

What do you do Splinter? Do you dither then cut, or do you cut the track up and then dither?

As long as I cut at a zero crosspoint I don't get glitches and the only way to ensure this is to do it AFTER dithering. I slice the songs up after bouncing my master as one continuous file with dither applied. I do this with every mastering project, not just continuous files. It's the last thing I do before I export for burning. If you wait to dither after you slice up the tracks, the dither will change the zero crosspoints.

[Shooshie]

See what I mean? There's usually a way to do what you want. You just have to ask the right people. Once you get familiar with the application, you'll be able to figure out all kinds of things that DP5 will do, because it seems that MOTU has nearly always given you the tools to create a work around even if the actual feature doesn't appear to be there at first glance. There's a lot of mythology about what DP can't do, repeated by people who either haven't found the answer, or haven't even tried. It always pays to give it a real try first, and/or ask someone who has. Having said that, I'll be the first to admit that DP has shortcomings, but they rarely affect my work.


Shooshie

[Phil O]

By track marks I mean Markers. The ability to divide a track into two or more subsequent tracks through the use of Track Markers. In a mastering program like WaveBurner or DSP-Quattro these regions can be dragged into a playlist as tracks in there own right.

Maybe it would help if I explained about the way I tend to work. I tend to enjoy creating music that contains movements which flow one into the other. I tend to bounce this as one long track. In the dim and distant past I have used a cutting tool to slice up this bounced track into individual slices or tracks, but experience tells me that doing it this way causes audio glitches. So by creating soft idents, or Track Markers gets around this.

Unless, of course, someone has a better way of working?

I have done several projects where I work this way.
What I do is set markers to where I want the file split. Click to the left of the marker in the markers window (positions the cursor at that marker), and then split at counter (cntrl Y) from the edit menu.
Next I go to the sound byte window and export the newly created soundbytes as AIFFs - then use Toast to burn a CD with 0 seconds between tracks.
I've never gotten a click or pop between tracks with this method.
Be sure to turn off "use crossfades on edits" option if you want seamless transitions from track to track.

Phil

[Phil O]

Sorry for split at counter I should have said option Y.

PO

[matwell]

The problem is, as I said before, that, in bouncing all songs as one long track, when splitting the audio up (scissors tool), that because there is no silence between tracks, the cut has sometimes created an audible glitch. (This also happened to a clients work once as well).

I have never had this problem unless I try to burn my CD with iTunes or I separate the song at a non-zero crosspoint. Neither of these problems are related to DP. I do continuous tracks a lot because I do a lot of live recording and this just isn't an issue in DP. But iTunes is another story. YOU CANNOT BURN DISKS WITH CONTINUOUS MUSIC ON ITUNES. Use Toast or Jam. All that to say, you can use an external editor, but you don't need to. I've been mastering continuous albums in DP for years.

I agree. The glitches are a result of the CD burning app, not DP (or Pro Tools). I have burned many CD's that contain continuous audio and the defining factor that influences whether there will be a glitch or not is what app you use to burn the CD. Using Pro Tools, I usually don't even bother to find a zero-crossing because my experience has shown that as long as the CD burning app is cool, then it doesn't matter. I have never had a problem with "Jam" by Roxio. "Toast" sometimes has glitches, but newer versions seem to have fixed it. I don't completely trust it. Forget using iTunes for any type of continuous audio CD. iTunes is only useful for burning individual songs quickly.

Hope this helps.