59 Tracks, Cubase at 16/44.1Khz

fmcfeete7 · Post by **fmcfeete7** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 9:13 am

Hello,
I was in a session with a colleague who was using Cubase on a PC. He was recording using a mLan interface attached to a Yamaha 01X through a Delta 1010 using firewire to connect to his computer. I have not inquired about processor specs but I was astounded to see that he was running 59 tracks STEREO at 16bit/44.1Khz. No processor problems at all! I am using a Dual G5 2.3Ghz w/ 6Mb RAM now I may be doing something wrong but I can not run more than 20 stereo at 16/44.1K and that's with all my buffers adjusted and the appropriate settings. I have never had that type of success. What do you think he was using to account for the additional trackage? What can I do to do the same?
Thanks,
Fmcfeete7

gearboy · Post by **gearboy** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 9:34 am

My stats for my two Macs' highest track counts in DP. All tracks are 24bit / 44.1kHz SDII files and buffer setting were at 1024 for both computers.

Dual 1.8 G5, 1.25GB RAM, 2nd internal 120gig SATA drive - Mixing session:
*33 Mono audio tracks
*I used 85 plug-ins (including Trim plugs, WAVES Rencomps, MWEQs on most channels, one Altiverb on an Aux, 1 or 2 RenVerbs on Aux)
*** I was freaking out over the amount of plug-ins that I was able to use during this mixing session.

PB G4 1.5Ghz, 768MB RAM, LACIE FW800 drive, 828mkii via PCMCIA bus - Tracking session (last week):
*2 stereo audio tracks (stems of vocals and instruments for G5 DP sessions)
*Up to 15 mono audio tracks
*Up to 8 takes over multiple tracks (drum takes)
*8 Trim plugs
***Lack of RAM prevents me from using plug-ins (spikes upon opening one MWEQ)

I would like to add that this was my PB's first field recording session, and it performed flawlessly. After I max out the RAM it'll be able to do much much more. Very happy with it.

You should definitely be getting a better track count out of your Dual G5 2.3Ghz, 6GB RAM.

Jeff

fmcfeete7 · Post by **fmcfeete7** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 9:38 am

What do you think I need to do? What am I doing wrong? Is there a setting I need to adjust? A different config? I'm using 2 896's. But when I edit that audio performance bar stays at 50% or more. What do you suggest?

ttoz · Post by **ttoz** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 10:39 am

do you mean that's all you can play BACK, or RECORD simultaneously?

martian · Post by **martian** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 11:08 am

gear boy,

was your track limitation due to harddrive speed or sheer plug in mass?

just curious

grimepoch · Post by **grimepoch** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 11:31 am

I run two 896's (one is an HD) and I've done quite a bit of configuration to get the most out of the system. I don't always run as many tracks, however, I can tell you what I did to get my system running as best as I have. Believe me, I've done a LOT of experimentation. I'll just run through the things I do when I am running.

* Make sure all your other apps are closed. I only have 2 Gig, so memory really makes a difference for me. Specifically; Mail, Firefox(or Safari) and iTunes. I am not sure if there are any CoreAudio conflicts going on, but it's possible since iTunes uses the audio interface as well, it could cause spikes. With these three programs on, I got spikes going from 25% to full. Without, I get little jumps every once in awhile, but not past 50%. (This was 10 stereo tracks, TONS of plugins).

* No matter how I tried to select each device inside of DP, using an Aggregate device in OSX (Tiger) gave me the best performance. I even have my units locked with a Lucid Genx96. Not sure what DP does, but I was getting playback problems till I went aggregate, now all those issues are gone.

* Something happens with the buffers some time. I was running at 256 and the meter was at 80%. So, I set it to 512 and the meter was almost off. So I went back to 256 and then it was at 20% Something wasn't happy but switching between the buffer times fixed the problem.

* Using the same drive in your system that OSX is running from can give you some problems. I switched to an external drive. However, running on the same firewire chain with my 896s was causing drop-outs. So, I bought a new FireWire (Adaptec) card and hook my 896s up to that. Now I am not getting any slowdown and hits beacuse of bus contention.

The biggest thing I still notice is that you need as much RAM as you can get for playback, so free up if you can. Also, get something like Xbench and look at the IO performance of your machine. Slow drives will kill your top track count ( and using a drive that the OS uses for its files and swap space).

Hope some of this helps. My system is pretty rock solid now (knock on plastic), but it took lots of experimentation. I run 24 mono channels live all the time (I record my synths down at the end) so I really had to tune my system to be able to run realtime.

fmcfeete7 · Post by **fmcfeete7** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 11:34 am

ttoz wrote:do you mean that's all you can play BACK, or RECORD simultaneously?

That's all I can playback without the audio performance bar jumping into the red and stopping the playback

fmcfeete7 · Post by **fmcfeete7** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 11:47 am

grimepoch wrote:I run two 896's (one is an HD) and I've done quite a bit of configuration to get the most out of the system. I don't always run as many tracks, however, I can tell you what I did to get my system running as best as I have. Believe me, I've done a LOT of experimentation. I'll just run through the things I do when I am running.

* Make sure all your other apps are closed. I only have 2 Gig, so memory really makes a difference for me. Specifically; Mail, Firefox(or Safari) and iTunes. I am not sure if there are any CoreAudio conflicts going on, but it's possible since iTunes uses the audio interface as well, it could cause spikes. With these three programs on, I got spikes going from 25% to full. Without, I get little jumps every once in awhile, but not past 50%. (This was 10 stereo tracks, TONS of plugins).

* No matter how I tried to select each device inside of DP, using an Aggregate device in OSX (Tiger) gave me the best performance. I even have my units locked with a Lucid Genx96. Not sure what DP does, but I was getting playback problems till I went aggregate, now all those issues are gone.

* Something happens with the buffers some time. I was running at 256 and the meter was at 80%. So, I set it to 512 and the meter was almost off. So I went back to 256 and then it was at 20% Something wasn't happy but switching between the buffer times fixed the problem.

* Using the same drive in your system that OSX is running from can give you some problems. I switched to an external drive. However, running on the same firewire chain with my 896s was causing drop-outs. So, I bought a new FireWire (Adaptec) card and hook my 896s up to that. Now I am not getting any slowdown and hits beacuse of bus contention.

The biggest thing I still notice is that you need as much RAM as you can get for playback, so free up if you can. Also, get something like Xbench and look at the IO performance of your machine. Slow drives will kill your top track count ( and using a drive that the OS uses for its files and swap space).

Hope some of this helps. My system is pretty rock solid now (knock on plastic), but it took lots of experimentation. I run 24 mono channels live all the time (I record my synths down at the end) so I really had to tune my system to be able to run realtime.

Thanks Rick, I will try those fixes and see what happens. What is an Xbench? What is an Aggregate? What is a LucidGen96?

Kubi · Post by **Kubi** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 11:49 am

I get WAY better numbers than you on a 2x2G5 with 3.5 Gig RAM, OS 10.3.9 (I ain't moving to Tiger until I hear nothing but good news from the Tiger camp...)

Most important thing IMO is to have a dedicated audio drive, preferably on an internal SATA bus (or similarly fast.) I don't see an audio drive mentioned in any of your posts, so if you don't have one, start there.

Aside from the OS (which may or may not have anything to do with this) I think the most important difference between your system and mine *may* be that

a) I use the 2408mkIII with the 424 card (your internal PCI buss goes unused), and

b) I use one internal SATA for apps and OS, and one internal SATA for audio, and

c) I use my FW400 exclusively for streaming samples and the likes.

FW400 is not a very fast buss, so if your audio HD is on FW AND your audio interface is on FW (or God forbid, on the same HD as the OS and the app), that may be the culprit right there.

Again, all guesses, albeit educated ones. But like I said, I get way better numbers...

fmcfeete7 · Post by **fmcfeete7** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 11:54 am

Kubi wrote:I get WAY better numbers than you on a 2x2G5 with 3.5 Gig RAM, OS 10.3.9 (I ain't moving to Tiger until I hear nothing but good news from the Tiger camp...)

Most important thing IMO is to have a dedicated audio drive, preferably on an internal SATA bus (or similarly fast.) I don't see an audio drive mentioned in any of your posts, so if you don't have one, start there.

Aside from the OS (which may or may not have anything to do with this) I think the most important difference between your system and mine *may* be that

a) I use the 2408mkIII with the 424 card (your internal PCI buss goes unused), and

b) I use one internal SATA for apps and OS, and one internal SATA for audio, and

c) I use my FW400 exclusively for streaming samples and the likes.

FW400 is not a very fast buss, so if your audio HD is on FW AND your audio interface is on FW (or God forbid, on the same HD as the OS and the app), that may be the culprit right there.

Again, all guesses, albeit educated ones. But like I said, I get way better numbers...

Yes, I'm exclusively using firewire for all of my connections. and no I am using my boot drive for my audio. I will make the switch. (just trying to not have to buy another hard drive, but I guess I will) Are you suggesting that I use a 424 card for my audio input to an external hard drive which is dedicated to nothing but audio? What is an internal SATA bus?

sevenone · Post by **sevenone** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 11:55 am

I routinely run 48+ mono tracks and 8-12 Aux buses, with a couple stereo tracks thrown in. Med plug counts, "Trigger" plug on snare and kick triggering MIDI track with DKFH, 24/48 512 buffer. I run this mixing while adding 2-3 tracks at a time. I have ZERO performance issues. My environment is spread between 2 monitors, if that would make a diff too (mixer/tracks/monitor - main; counter/seq/trans - top).

I run a Dual 2ghz G5 with 4gb Ram - 828mkII - dedicated 250gb INT HD. I also have it set up under its own user with a very clean install. I used the "Tracking the big cats" article when setting up the machine.

--EDIT---
and Tiger 10.4.6

gearboy · Post by **gearboy** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 3:24 pm

gear boy,

was your track limitation due to harddrive speed or sheer plug in mass?

just curious

I guess that I was being a bit misleading. That was the largest mix that I've done in DP so far. Limitations due to the fact that the band ran out of ideas!!! I definitely could have done more tracks, however I had DP configured with a ton of plug-ins. Trim, Comp, EQ on most channels. This was also before I knew about shutting off all graphics in the MWEQ, which would have provided more CPU headroom.

Let me also add that for me, 33 tracks is a huge mix and I can't see ever needing more tracks than that. But maybe that's just me. I remember when 16 tracks was a huge mix.

Some points for fmcfeete7 that will definitely help:

a) Add a second internal SATA drive for all recording with DP. I used to use a FW400 drive (Glyph NET 120) for my audio, but I did 80% of my recording remote using an Alesis HD24. Once I began recording exclusively into DP and mixing bigger projects I realized that FW400 was not cutting it. Adding a second internal drive gave me much better performance that I noticed immediately.

b) Mix using a buffer size of 1024, provided that you are mixing 100% in the box.

c) If you tend to use and love the MasterWorks EQ, make sure that you disable its graphics once you decide on a setting. The toggles are located in the upper right about the parametric section.

Jeff

matwell · Post by **matwell** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 6:30 pm

gearboy wrote:...Let me also add that for me, 33 tracks is a huge mix and I can't see ever needing more tracks than that. But maybe that's just me. I remember when 16 tracks was a huge mix....Jeff

I'm sorry, but that is so unrealistic these days. Not trying to start a fight here, but I *regularly* deal with 100+ tracks in Pro Tools HD. If you are doing a complete production in-the-box, with full orchestra, layers of vocals, synth tracks, live rhythm section, etc., then you will easily top 100 tracks. The biggest session I've ever done in Pro Tools was 176 tracks.

You guys should check out Mitch Gallagher's white paper at Sweetwater. http://www.sweetwater.com/feature/motu/
He tests exactly the things we're talking about here.

ghia · Post by **ghia** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 7:51 pm

Hey,
Sounds like I might find myself in the same boat.

I'm waiting for the delivery of a new PowerMacG5 Dual 2.3Ghz. /3.5 g rAM It comes stock with one 250GB Drive. I plan on using this exclusively for my DP 5 audio projects.
Sholud I be considering getting another drive? If so, any recOmendations?
Thanks!!

gearboy · Post by **gearboy** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 8:38 pm

I'm sorry, but that is so unrealistic these days. Not trying to start a fight here, but I *regularly* deal with 100+ tracks in Pro Tools HD. If you are doing a complete production in-the-box, with full orchestra, layers of vocals, synth tracks, live rhythm section, etc., then you will easily top 100 tracks. The biggest session I've ever done in Pro Tools was 176 tracks.

Different strokes for different folks. I'm not working on projects that require more than 33 tracks right now.

Jeff

MOTUnation.com

59 Tracks, Cubase at 16/44.1Khz

59 Tracks, Cubase at 16/44.1Khz

trackage

Good PowerMac SATA Hard Drive...