Hum/Grounding Issues

YouTube · Post by **James Steele** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 10:04 pm

Perhaps somebody can help answer this:

I have been upgrading my studio and recently purchased a Avalon U5 as well as the HD192 expander for my setup. I was recording some bass tracks going from the Avalon directly into the HD192. On playback I noticed some hum... similar to 60 cycle, but more like a high white noise / soft buzz sound. Of course this seems to go away when I have my hands on the strings of the bass (or a guitar). I plugged headphones into the phone jack of the Avalon and the hum/buzz is still there. I started unplugging various things in the studio. Oddly when I unplugged my G5 the hum got louder. Also it will change with the orientation of the guitar.

Everything in my studio is plugged into a TrippLite power conditioner... one of the two rack space units. At one point I got it to be ghostly quiet but then that was with no power to my computer and bunch of other stuff at all. I did find one problem and that was with a power strip that was for a number of synths that was plugged directly into a wall outlet. I rerouted it to the TrippLite and that helped. Plugging in an incandescent torchier light onto the same circuit with audio stuff made it worse... I moved that to the wall.

Bottom line is I *still* have sound grounding issues and I don't know where this is occurring. I have an home built in the earlier 50s and I don't know if part of it might be the wiring and I need an electrician to create a proper ground for me by driving a copper pipe into the ground, etc. Any thoughts are welcomed.

builder · Post by **builder** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 5:03 am

Does in make the same noise if you DI a guitar?
Could the shielding from your bass be to deteriated?

If it is in fact a ground loop, if you plug one of the devices into an outlet that is not on the same circuit, it theoretically should disapear.

When I built my studio, I wired it with 14/2 MC using isolated grounding outlets (The ground is not bonded to the receptical) And that seemed to get rid of all grounding problems. It is not STAR grounding but is close in theory.

Adding a grounding rod is not a difficult. You need not pay to have that done. I worked with an electrian for five years when I was in college.
All you need is is the rod, and acorn to go on top and some #6 copper wire. It gets attached to the neutral/grounding bar of your electrical box, and then to the acorn of the grounding rod. If you already have a grounding rod, drive anothe one in the ground about 6-8 feet away, and then connect them in tandem by unsheathing about and inch of wire (without cutting it) and wrap in around the existining rod before going back into your house.....

That is probaby more than you wanted to know.....

But let me know if I can help in that way.

BradLyons · Post by **BradLyons** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 5:13 am

Well I can't promise this is the problem, but it sounds like you do have dirty electricity. Don't worry, just about every home has this. When I built my studio, I had two distinct circuits built in the room. One is where all of my gear is plugged into, another is any additional stuff in the room (such as room A/C, floor lights, lava lamps, etc) and then the track lights are on a main house circuit. My house is about 3-years old, obviously the wiring is new but that doesn't mean the power is ideal. I have PLENTY of juice coming in, but I still benefit from filtering that power. In my rack, I have a Monster Power Pro2500 rackmount power conditioner and in my desk I have a Furman unit of some sort. These aren't high-end units but definitely better than your average product by far. HOWEVER inside my wall (technically in the attic) I have an old and trust Furman AR-Pro which is a KILLER regulation conditioner that does an amazing job. When I was in Connecticut, our studio was in an old factory that dated back before the Civil War. I swear the wiring was from that time, too

It was awful, during the daytime we might have as low as 105 volts and at night up to 127 volts--BOTH ARE BAD. We had (4) Isolation Transformers and Voltage Regulators which helped dramatically.

There is a lot of "noise", so to speak, in a power line and remember that electricity supplied to your house is meant to run your lights, hair dryer, etc. The electric companies want to make money too, so they are not going to provide the cleanest possible power to your line. If you were to get a scope plugged into your line that measures RFI and EMI interference, you'd be surprised at what you see.

You might want to look at something like this:

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/PRO3500/

Ideally, THIS would be your best choice but it aint cheap:

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/PRO7000/

YouTube · Post by **James Steele** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 5:23 am

Brad... what do you think about the Furman IT 1220? Don't shoot me... I ordered one somewhere else.

YouTube · Post by **James Steele** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 6:09 am

Okay... update... I had time to think about it and I'm going to do more investigating today before I spend the dough on the Furman balanced power unit.

BradLyons · Post by **BradLyons** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 6:25 am

Well the IT1220 is more or less a balanced power conditioner that will help clean up your power significantly. I can't say it will eliminate your problems as there could be several causes, but I can promise your audio will sound SO much better through it. One of the biggest downfalls in every studio is the power be given to your gear. It's like how I felt last year before my throat surgery when I was only getting 50% (at best!) of my normal oxygen flow. While I could breathe and do what I normally do, I couldn't do it to the best of my ability....but after the surgery, WOW. The same is true with power conditioning and I'm not talking these $200 units...I mean REAL conditioners such as Isolation Transformers, Voltage Regulators, etc. It not only protects your gear over time, but gives you optimum power and clean power at that. Yeah, they do make a difference.

If you've already ordered the IT1220, I'd still keep that on order because the worst it will do is imrpove everything in your setup and protect it over time.

YouTube · Post by **James Steele** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 6:34 am

BradLyons wrote:If you've already ordered the IT1220, I'd still keep that on order because the worst it will do is imrpove everything in your setup and protect it over time.

Okay... you've convinced me... I'll go ahead and see if it does make a difference. It's not harmful plugging a Mac into it? Also if you plug a power strip into it, and then gear into the strip, will it have the same beneficial effect?

BradLyons · Post by **BradLyons** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 6:58 am

The only thing I would personally plug a Mac into is the bottom of the ocean

Seriously, it's fine.... actually a computer would benefit greatly from clean power (hard-drive and CPU cycles).

YouTube · Post by **James Steele** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 7:06 am

BradLyons wrote:The only thing I would personally plug a Mac into is the bottom of the ocean

Mac bashing???? Mac bashing??? On a primarily Mac board. LOL Can't help it... I wanna run Digital Performer, man... and ya can't do that on a Winbloze box.

MT · Post by MT » Wed Mar 29, 2006 7:37 am

James, I recently reassembled everything in my setup as well after building a new desk. I incorporated the Furman AR-15 II which is a cheaper (relatively speaking) unit than what you're looking to buy. Prior to this, I had one of the $50 Furman strips and that's it, with no hum or buzz. I have two outlets on the wall that my desk parallels, and had always run my audio through the left outlet and my PCs/Mac and lights through the right. When I installed the new setup, I installed the AR-15 and it was more convenient to plug in to the right outlet with the whole deal, so there was nothing in the left at that point.

Although I changed some gear and added one unbalanced unit (FMR RNLA), I was surprised to find a new hum on reassembly. The amps on my Mackie monitors were buzzing, even when turned off. The hum dimmed almost completely when I shut off my POD Bass Pro XT and unplugged the wallwart for the RNLA (which also killed the buzz on the Mackies). Scratched my head a bit and then decided to plug the AR-15 into the left outlet (old way) because I realized my living room equipment was on the same circuit (consumer stereo, TV, etc). Moving it to the other outlet (circuit) took away all of the hum.

There are some great threads on TapeOp about this, which is where I searched for answers and got plenty. Point is, don't be surprised if you plug in your new expensive unit and have the same problem you had before. Your gear will run better, sure, but it may not be the "magic box". You may still need to get another circuit going, or try the grounding techniques discussed.

Have fun!

MT

BradLyons · Post by **BradLyons** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 7:48 am

Yeah, I do LOVE Digital Performer.... it's such a great program, although ProToolsHD is my system of choice. I was happy to switch over to one of our Creation Station PC's, I'm definitely a PC guy. The ONLY reason I bought a Mac in the past was for Digital Performer but when I decided to stick with ProToolsHD exclusively, that was an easy decision for me. It's funny, I still hear rumours that a PC version of Digital Performer is coming out but the reality is, MOTU is able to do things for the Mac they can't do on the PC just like Cakewalk Sonar can do things on the PC they couldn't do on the Mac--which is why both programs are solid programs!

BradLyons · Post by **BradLyons** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 7:50 am

Oh and I wasn't Mac bashing, I selected the bottom of the ocean because the water would allow it to slowly sink to the bottom and the shock would be absorbed in the mud ocean-floor. Now taking a sledgehammer to the computer, THAT would be Mac bashing

LOL ALL in good fun, of course.

jon · Post by **jon** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 9:03 am

James, about three weeks ago I made some gear maneuvers in my little garage MAC/DP studio and re-wired all cables and plugs and powered everything on and I had this darn awful hummmmmmm. For hours I tried everything like replacing cables, changing power supplies and finally had to give up because I was loosing my sanity. Mind you my studio has its own lines and feeds from its own electrical box. I went to get a drink of water and in one of the small room••™s was my wife working and by her side was a harmless little space heater and I thought nah can't be that. Well switched off the space heater and went back into the control room and powered everything back on and it was silence of the lambs once again. Btw I replaced the heater with another and it worked without the hum. Just thought I••™d share that with you.

kelldammit · Post by **kelldammit** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 12:31 pm

it changes with the orientation of the guitar?? hmmm. the orientation of the guitar relative to what? the display monitor? the computer? the avalon?
it sounds like you're picking up RFI from somewhere. if you face perpendicular to the computer display monitor, does the noise almost vanish?

kell

YouTube · Post by **James Steele** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 12:35 pm

kelldammit wrote:it changes with the orientation of the guitar?? hmmm. the orientation of the guitar relative to what? the display monitor? the computer? the avalon?
it sounds like you're picking up RFI from somewhere. if you face perpendicular to the computer display monitor, does the noise almost vanish?

kell

It's not the monitor from what I can tell. It's a flat panel monitor (I have two of them) and it happens even if I turn the monitors off. I cancelled my order for the Furman (yet again... they think I'm nuts!) because I just don't want to drop a grand on this if it's going to be something I can fix with some troubleshooting.