MachFive in a Nutshell-- POLL

[Groovepusher Sly]

This is very odd, and yes-- how time does fly. Honestly, I find third-party support and developmental continuity from MOTU quite embarrassing-- shameful, really.

Am I judging too harshly or too prematurely here?

It's been my experience that MOTU may take a while to come out with upgrades or new products, but when they DO put it out, it usually works well.
I sent them an e-mail in Jan. '04 wishing for an 828 style interface that would fit in my computer case. As you know, they just came out with the UltraLite. I didn't panic while waiting, I just prepared myself for "when".
Keep letting MOTU know what you need, I think they're listening.

Sly

[Frodo]

Yes, Sly. Patience is elemental with all of this. Thing is, one can toss cash at all sorts of things while waiting.

I think MOTU is listening. They may not always agree, but I believe that are listening...

[chrispick]

Yes, Sly. Patience is elemental with all of this. Thing is, one can toss cash at all sorts of things while waiting.

I think MOTU is listening. They may not always agree, but I believe that are listening...

Patience is well and good, but what about people who need a top-of-the-performance soft sampler today? Or yesterday? Or eight months ago?

Pressing their luck, I think.

[Frodo]

Yes, Sly. Patience is elemental with all of this. Thing is, one can toss cash at all sorts of things while waiting.

I think MOTU is listening. They may not always agree, but I believe that are listening...

Patience is well and good, but what about people who need a top-of-the-performance soft sampler today. Or yesterday. Or eight months ago.

Pressing their luck, I think.

My thoughts, exactly--

But what else can you do? This is why I think a lot of sample libraries these days are self-contained. I would otherwise be nowhere without such libraries as Ivory, Vienna Symphonic Lib., etc.

K2 seems to be *largely* without a true rival as full featured sample libraries go for Mac. If I'm wrong, I'd be happy to concede. The more I look at M5, it saddens me that such a brilliant sampler hasn't generated more support or excitement.

The enigma is that these new MOTU VI's to come have taken priority when M5 stopped short of being a ture flagship VI.

But, I'm exploring possible reasons for getting both M5 and K2 as, I'm sure, someone might offer reasons for why getting both is not a good idea.

[chrispick]

K2 seems to be *largely* without a true rival as full featured sample libraries go for Mac. If I'm wrong, I'd be happy to concede.

Today, I'm inclined to agree. I hope M5 2 steps up to the plate soon. The M5 interface is a better UI in my opinion -- and the UVI Engine has cool proc effects.

Don't get me wrong; I like my M5. I use it all the time. But I worry the product is losing competitive ground.

As for dedicated, specialized VIs, I've been moving in this direction as well -- mostly because I've reached the stage where a great one-trick-pony app is more suitable than a good jack-of-all-trades app.

[Frodo]

Minior correction on my part:

"K2 seems to be *largely* without a true rival as full featured sample libraries go for Mac. If I'm wrong, I'd be happy to concede."

Should read:

"K2 seems to be *largely* without a true rival as full featured VI samplers go for Mac. If I'm wrong, I'd be happy to concede.

*****

My unabashedly optimistic statement for the week:

<<MachFive2 has got to be incredible because the alternative would be embarrassingly unthinkable.>>

So, while we're waiting I've been enjoying a little light reading--

Eight Pages of Virtual Instruments for All Platforms!!
http://www.harmony-central.com/Electron ... ents01.htm

[wlbwlb]

So, while we're waiting I've been enjoying a little light reading--

Eight Pages of Virtual Instruments for All Platforms!!
http://www.harmony-central.com/Electron ... ents01.htm

Thanks for this link, Frodo. Now that's quite a list, a real überlist. Not that my wishlist wasn't long enough already! What amazed me was that, as thorough as that list was, so much is omitted. I guess you have to buy the hardcopy to see everything.

While we're on the subject of virtual instruments, I just got Stylus RMX v. 1.5, and it is quite a snazzy piece of work. They give away several downloadable video tutorials on how to use it that are really good, done by Eric Persing, their resident sample guru. And if you ever wanted to get just that right bass sound but couldn't find it, check out Spectrasonics Trilogy. Acoustic, electronic, synthed-out••”whaever. You'll never want for the coolest bass sound again.

Speaking of tutorials and VIs, check out the video tutorials on the new Vienna Instrument. I was totally zonked by how it works and how far ahead of all the other orchestral instruments and sample players it is.

http://www.vsl.co.at/en-us/211/344/237.vsl

Especially, check out:
Patches & Matrices: An Overview

If only the VSL samples were easier to use and didn't break the bank. I'm thinking about coughing up for just the chamber strings so that I can play with this super-cool new instrument/player.

Finally, since I am coming out here as the tutorial junkie that I am, there is a really superb set of tutorials on DVD about Kontakt 2. They must have spend a fortune doing these. Even the lighting is very professional. Looks like it was shot in a upscale jazz club. And all the screen shots are terrific. Oh, and also the content is excellent too. Since Native Instruments produced it, there's not much they don't cover.

Bill

[Frodo]

Hey Bill-- I was wondering how recent or out of date that list was, but at 8 pages I supposed by the time one got through it all an "über-er" überlist might be located.

On the VSL front, I actually have the new VSL Virtual Instrument!!! That's one investment which pleases me greatly. It set me back a "nickle or two", but I've been with VSL for a while. The new 24-bit series was about half price with my upgrade path. I aboslutely love it, but it is involved. Some of its design concept was to enable the user to do all the expressive controls and play parts in real time. Honestly, you'd have to be a mutant octopus to do everything at once (foot pedals, keyswitches, mod wheel x-fades, endless assignable controller nobs) but the new collection has already revolutionized the way samples are used. There will be lots of copycat products by NAMM 2007, I'm sure.

I love tutorials-- the good ones, anyway. Too many of them stop short of being no more than product overviews rather than offering much in the way of true tutoring. As I watch and wait for more info on MachFive 2, K2 is sounding increasingly attractive, a great tutorial is a major plus. Granted, some may argue that no formal tutorial may be necessary for M5, but I'm not a believer in the term "document saturation". Bring it on!!

The other thing about K2 is that if it runs as a standalone, there is FINALLY a good reason for me to max out my RAM to 8GB. Getting add-ons to run outside of DP's 3-4 GB limit has been one of my biggest concerns.

Now- Spectrasonics Trilogy, eh? Yours is quite a quote: And if you ever wanted to get just that right bass sound but couldn't find it.... Just checked out some of the demos. VERY nice ear candy!!

I was thinking that it would be great if Roland (of all companies) would develop a software version of their XV-5080 with all of their expansion card libraries. For a piece of hardware, a loaded unit contains a vast amount of data that would be well-served by computer software management (I've had enough of the hard-to-read front panel buttons and menus). I still make great use of many of those sounds.

So much to buy. So little cash.

[wlbwlb]

On the VSL front, I actually have the new VSL Virtual Instrument!!! That's one investment which pleases me greatly. It set me back a "nickle or two", but I've been with VSL for a while. The new 24-bit series was about half price with my upgrade path.

I think you have to be an Austrian CPA to figure out these discounts. Peter Alexander, who was coordinator of the L.A. Beta test team for VSL said as much in his review of the VI:

http://www.soniccontrol.com/reviews/details.php?ID=99

I finally asked a dealer I often order from to figure it out for me. Has the Performance Tool been replaced, or is it still necessary?

I love tutorials-- the good ones, anyway. Too many of them stop short of being no more than product overviews rather than offering much in the way of true tutoring. As I watch and wait for more info on MachFive 2, K2 is sounding increasingly attractive, a great tutorial is a major plus. Granted, some may argue that no formal tutorial may be necessary for M5, but I'm not a believer in the term "document saturation". Bring it on!!

Nice to meet a kindred spirit. You definitely won't be disappointed in the K2 tutorial. I think I must have every book and tutorial ever produced on Logic, yet I still suffer its indignities. Martin Sitter's tutorial on the Environment reduced my anxiety level a bit, but when I set up Logic to interface with Gigasampler, it took several days and much handholding on various forums. George Leger has a good video on Logic, a bit on the elementary side, but very thorough and solid. No BS.

The other thing about K2 is that if it runs as a standalone, there is FINALLY a good reason for me to max out my RAM to 8GB. Getting add-ons to run outside of DP's 3-4 GB limit has been one of my biggest concerns.

I finaly bit the bullet and installed 8GB, but as you suggest, a lot of software can't take advantage of it. I think that standalone samplers like Kontakt can store unlimited amounts in RAM, but when they come up as a plug-in in DP or Logic, the host software calls the tune, as it were.

Now- Spectrasonics Trilogy, eh? Yours is quite a quote: And if you ever wanted to get just that right bass sound but couldn't find it.... Just checked out some of the demos. VERY nice ear candy!!

Yeah, it's absolutely addictive. I didn't know there could possibly be that many fine gradations of bass sounds.

I was thinking that it would be great if Roland (of all companies) would develop a software version of their XV-5080 with all of their expansion card libraries. For a piece of hardware, a loaded unit contains a vast amount of data that would be well-served by computer software management (I've had enough of the hard-to-read front panel buttons and menus). I still make great use of many of those sounds.

I don't have a lot of experience with hardware samplers, but I still have a Kawai K-5 that I bought a long time ago with a 2-square inch panel. You know, those weird dreamy and funky analog syth sounds are coming back, much to my surprise. I thought they had died with disco, but I'm hearing them in all styles of pop, rap, house, etc. I think I might have even heard some on Sergio Mendes's recent cut of Mas Que Nada with the Blackeyed Peas, one amazing production. Who would ever have thought of puttting those two together. Talk about different styles! But it works. I downloaded the whole album from iTunes.

So much to buy. So little cash.

Amen, brother.

Bill

[Frodo]

Wow-- great review of VSL-- accurate in both pros and cons-- fair for the same reasons.

I suppose part 2 of the review is not up yet.

I'd spent so much time on the VSL forum where few people discuss using that collection in conjunction with other collections for that bigger "Hollywood" sound, as Peter mentioned in the review. I've heard this mentioned through the grapevine, but I never really intended to suppliment VSL with another library. The truth is that the earlier versions were SO slow going that I was never able to complete one single score for standalone orchestra with them, so I did my basic scores in Vitous and added essential elements with VSL where needed.

(All of this gets back to K2 in a moment...)

Among the many things on my long "short" list is the EWQLSO strings and brass, where large ensemble sounds seem to be more easily achieved. I do appreciate VSL's intimacy and detailing, but it's just not a collection you can use in a hurry. The up side of it is that if you take your time (if you HAVE the time), the results can be absolutely stunning.

Enter EWQLSO-- at one point, there were issues with this on the Mac which I understand have been sorted out. When I went to A/B EW with VSL, the dealer basically told me that as of that day there was really no choice to make. This has changed. Now that it, I think, runs in Kontakt or a version of Kontakt Player designed especially for it, the potential for late 19th Century-style standalone scores becomes a real (and expensive) possibility.

If the EW demos are any indication, I'm glad I went with VSL first, whose orchestras are "big enough" for a start and offer way more options for smaller ensembles. You can fake your way to a bigger orchestra with samples, but you can't pretend that a 50-piece string section with 8-10 French horns (along side complimentary winds and percussion) is an intimate configuration.

One consideration for M5-II in this regard would be how well or how possible EWQLSO could be imported. But once again with running two sample libraries measuring in the hundreds of GB, one of them will have to run outside of DP-- if not as a standalone app, then on another computer.

I'm beginning to understand why I don't have more VI's!!

[doodles]

yep, same here - got the entire cube for VSI, with all the extended versions. gonna be paying that back for a bit! haven't really had a chance to delve into it too much yet, but what i've seen so far is unbelievable - and on the customer service front, they're unbelievable - always on the boards helping out.

tick tick, gold star

[Frodo]

yep, same here - got the entire cube for VSI, with all the extended versions. gonna be paying that back for a bit! haven't really had a chance to delve into it too much yet, but what i've seen so far is unbelievable - and on the customer service front, they're unbelievable - always on the boards helping out.

tick tick, gold star

Hey doodles-- I agree. The VSL team sets a whole new standard in their very active support department as well as with their VI concept.

Congrats on getting the whole Cube. I think many of us will be putting it to very good use at least until such time that it pays for itself.

I suppose because of your membership here that you are a DP user? Feel free to share more about your system, other sample libraries and VI's-- how you've optimized your setups, and whatever techniques you've found most expedient.

Cheers!

[shepherd mix]

frodo -
i was in dp, looking for a sampler, i chose mach v, in a rush (on a recommendation). It (UVI-extract) didn't convert my .gigs well (no key switches, and I think no velocity switches). This was a deal breaker for me. Went with kontakt 2; and am very happy -- although I have not done much with it. (Happy because I can easily import my velocity & key switching .gigs, with minimal hassle, and it works. I haven't explored much else.) Multiples outs, in mach v was easy; but i was able to do multiple outs with K2 in DP. Also, applying filter cut off in Mach V (like in exs) is easy, 'cause it's set up, in front of you; in k2, you can add a ton of effects, including filters, but you have to add them. But this isn't a problem in k2, & i wonder if there's a "template" you can always load up.
Off topic, I've been learning/working in logic 7, and so, i'm discovering exs. I am glad that exs imports velocity/key switching. I was pretty disappointed that Mach V did not do this. I figured this was an obvious feature. Especially because of motu's marketing of it. F--- marketing.
We're fortunate for the Sam Gamgees on these forums. Has been helpful for me.

other possibly useless/full (?)rumor: i think upgrade from mach v version 1->2 may be free.

Anyway, today, for DP, when comparing mach v vs. k2, if hassle-free .gig import is required, i'd recommend k2. (but, note that i don't have much experience with k2. there are a lot of complaints on the NI k2 forum -- i haven't experienced them ... yet.)

[Frodo]

Hey Shepherd:

Thanks for the K2 vote. I'm liking these import features as well. Don't have it yet, but am waiting to hear more about M5-II. I don't see how M5-II could survive without the same conversion capabilities since few or none are releasing their libraries in M5 format. M5 has a lot of great features, don't get me wrong, but there is reason to wonder about support and future expandability.

I bought Logic just to use EXS (to be client-compatible as well). I wish that EXS were not tied to Logic and usable as a standalone or universal plugin. It's stable and cooperative.

Maybe I'll try the K2 demo again, if possible. When I first tried it, I didn't have any sounds I wanted to convert at the time, but this might be fun to play around with again at the end of the day.

[Shooshie]

Well, I'm still pretty new at all this VI stuff, relatively speaking. I've used rack gear all these years, and this new world of VI is absolutely amazing to me. I think MachFive is wonderful -- even indispensible. But even so, I'll have to give it a 4, for reasons already cited. It just needs to be smarter. It's going to have to do things that Kontakt2 does, and the keyswitching, and all that. I won't be happy until I can control strings in real time with up bow, down bow, pizz/arco, spiccato, col legno, legato, marcato, harmonics, etc. But that's putting pressure on ALL VIs. In other words, there very few that would get a 5, to my knowledge. Of course, I don't have the bucks for Vienna yet. Maybe it does that in real time.

So, I place MachFive about as high as I would rate a multi-format sampler, given my limited knowledge of what's out there. I'm already spoiled to Akoustik Piano, which is mind-bogglingly good, as well as Ivory, which is as good or better. I think I could give those instruments a 5, because there just is very little room for improvement. But those are keyboards. I need something that good for strings and winds. I'm getting a lot of mileage out of MOTU Symphonic Instrument, which uses the same engine as MachFive.

I haven't begun to get the most out of MachFive yet. I'd like to do some sampling with it -- sample myself playing my own instruments in a nice wooden hall. And much more. I've already converted my Kurzweil and Roland disks to MachFive, at least those which are worthy. Some of them don't play as well in MachFive as they did on the Kurz. I'm sure there is some tweaking I can do, once I get the time and motivation to do it.

I'm very thankful to have these incredible instruments. If we get away from the quality of the individual patches and just look at the plugins as a whole, the concept is very mature. Multi-timbral, saved setups with dozens of parameters, multiple channels, multiple outputs -- the architecture is really getting there. If MachFive can gain the programmability of Kontakt2, while keeping it simple as MOTU has a knack for doing, version 2 would be great; maybe even a 5. Meanwhile, it's as indispensible as any VI can be at this point.

Shooshie