Orchestral samples

chrispick · Post by **chrispick** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 11:12 pm

Hey folks,

I use East West Gold for the bulk of my orchestral sample use. And I like it, by and large.

But, lately, I've been testing my mixes in mono to check for phase cancellation and tonal balance -- and the EW stuff is not holding up very well, especially in the lower registers (largely, I believe, because of the room ambience included in the samples). I have some VSL samples, and they hold up to the mono test better, but they lack the full timbre I hear in the EW stuff. They're a little more milquetoast to my ears.

Anyway, anyone have any recommendations for a different orchestral library? Has anyone out there used all them and can offer a cursory benefits/deficits assessment.

Any input is appreciated.

Siryne · Post by **Siryne** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 1:00 am

I have been a fan of the Kirk Hunter stuff ever since I used them (Virtuoso Strings) in Akai. In truth, I still use them. However, I also have the Kirk Humter Symphonic Orchestra Emerald (Kontakt 2) as well as Chamber Strings and also the Kirk Hunter Brass Ensembles and they do not disappoint. They can be quite colored in the sense of vibrato (strings) but also very dramatic and of very high quality. I also use EWQLSO Gold and it is nice. I do think that other textures are very handy to have around and that layering say, a 4 violin chamber patch with a larger section can be very effective. I also have VSL and they are impressive in some areas although I find the strings a bit sterile for what I do. Truth is, variety of samples, while expensive, is really the key to being able to get that perfect sound for that perfect arrangement. Give Kirk Hunter a listen, see what you think.

Peace!

ADino · Post by **ADino** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 8:47 am

I am searching for orchestral, Hunter is 1 that I will check out, so thanks.
Has anyone here any experience w/ Miroslav?

Timmy S · Post by **Timmy S** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 7:46 pm

Check out the Sam horns and orchestral percussion. By far the best. Listen to the samples and http://www.projectsam.com

Frodo · Post by **Frodo** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 9:09 pm

ADino wrote:I am searching for orchestral, Hunter is 1 that I will check out, so thanks.
Has anyone here any experience w/ Miroslav?

I've got VSL and Miroslav Phiharmonik. I love them both for what they offer, and I use them together.

I've been consulting with a recording engineer for what I call "session-lessons" on the best way to mix a sampled orchestra. He highly recommends combining different libraries of sounds and different combos of similar instruments to add layers of interest and detailing. For larger orchestras, I'll use VSL's 14 violins, plus Miroslav's, then I'll add a solo violin very low in the track and dial in a small chamber ensemble of 4 violins. Doesn't necessarily make it louder, but it does make it more sophisticated, more lush, and at times more realistic or less predicatble.

-- but also he recommends making one library the "basic" stereo sound due to any predominant characteristics of ambience and stereo imaging. Other sounds, in our last session, were placed in mono-- panned and balanced with the stereo samples. I had initial reservations about this, but it really sounded a LOT better, especially once the predelays in Altiverb 5 were programmed carefully.

Timmy S · Post by **Timmy S** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 9:47 pm

Make sure when you double a sound, with another libraries sound, that you don't simply copy the same MIDI track and double up but rather replay the track so you get the slight rythmic diversity you would get from an actual orchestra which is the big draw back of using samples. Or at the very least put a slight delay but the latter would be much more "human"

chrispick · Post by **chrispick** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 10:57 pm

Thanks for the replies.

FWIW: I do layer orchestral sounds, and I do play each part manually, one at a time. This technique can add some texture, but it doesn't do much to alleviate the phase cancellation issue -- or at least it hasn't for me so far.

I'll investigate some of the suggestions listed here. Thanks again.

Frodo · Post by **Frodo** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 11:53 pm

Depending upon which samples of the same library are doubled, some samples can just be edited versions of the same sample. This can cause some phase cancellation as well..

I had an odd thing like this happen with Vitous-- there was one spot where the viola accompanying line doubled the French horn solo melody. Only on that one note was there some odd cancellation where the overtones just jumped out of the track 10dB hotter than everything else. In those cases, I just removed the offending note in the viola part for only that one spot-- it wasn't missed at all.

BRAVO to those who understand the value of not copying and pasting!!!! I'd even take it a step further to say that sequencing without a click in "real time" also adds believability to those tracks that are orchestra-only. Sweetening a pop rhythm track or a track with sync'd loops, of course, is a different story.

Silicon Beach Studio · Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:25 am

Frodo wrote:BRAVO to those who understand the value of not copying and pasting!!!! I'd even take it a step further to say that sequencing without a click in "real time" also adds believability to those tracks that are orchestra-only. Sweetening a pop rhythm track or a track with sync'd loops, of course, is a different story.

yes, I can see that would help the feel of a purely orchestral piece ... it becomes, in effect, an orchestra without a "conductor track" - like in the old days of people just playing together as an ensemble.

out of interest, how many problems does not having a bar structure create for say scoring to pix ? - makes syncing up with tempo changes more difficult I guess

or doubling / adding some live players - probably makes it much harder to prepare the parts ?

doodles · Post by **doodles** » Sat Feb 25, 2006 5:56 am

it depends what we're talking about here - whether you're playing in the parts as your final recording, or whether you're playing it in to be replaced by real instruments later?

i sometimes play in some cues in real time when if it's just a solo instrument, but toherwise stick to using click tracks and a bar structure in some shape or form, else you're going to have a nightmare sending it off to copyists, or if you use an orchestrator.

just my own thoughts...

Frodo · Post by **Frodo** » Sat Feb 25, 2006 1:19 pm

My approach is often two-fold. To make sequences work convincingly requires one approach-- more free style. To create a score requires a totally different approach.

More than just synchronization and bar alignment, some things work differently with samples than they do in real life. I have never been able to use MIDI files directly in Finale without making numerous adjustments. I always write my score first, then I sequence it however I need to in order to make it work. After that, the final performing version of the score is made. There is no one way to make all aspects of this kind of project work in a single approach. Porting SMF's into Finale requires heavy note-on and note-off quantization to make the notes appear properly on the page. Such quantization can destroy the behavior of samples and their attack and release timings which may have been offset to sound more as though human beings were actually playing it.

Using the conductor track works better when the music is rhythmic, but simply entering conductor tempo adjustments doesn't always give the best results when the music is fairly rubato or contains lots of gradual accelerandos or ritardandos. While sophisticated tempo maps are used heavily, free timing is also used in live scoring sessions when it is deemed to work better than rigid tempo maps. There's no reason why using DP for scoring would have to be limited to just conductor tempo maps.

dpdan · Post by **dpdan** » Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:22 pm

watch and listen and feel free to comment.
Please download it first, this will eliminate interuption during viewing.

Dan

http://www.mydocsonline.com/pub/DPDAN/K ... 0Magic.mov

Frodo · Post by **Frodo** » Sat Feb 25, 2006 6:21 pm

Dan-- thanks for the nice treat!! It's not to be taken lightly when a video of live orchestral performance can be had-- and when the visuals and audio are as good as this it becomes even more of a treasure for a composer and orchestrator!

I enjoyed this very much. Nice work!! It was well performed, beautifully orchestrated (!!) and aside from all else, it's a great lesson in blend, pan, and ambience for creating virtual demos.

Nicely done and congrats!!

Best,
Frodo

dpdan · Post by **dpdan** » Sun Feb 26, 2006 10:42 am

Thank you Frodo,
I'm happy you enjoyed it! So many times, we all have (pre) biased emotions, and we decide before we even listen, that it's going to be bad.
Thank you for your nice compliments.

Dan

Frodo · Post by **Frodo** » Sun Feb 26, 2006 12:51 pm

So, what were your thoughts?
Did it meet your expectations?
Was there anything you would have done differently?
What were your first impressions when hearing it?
What elements seemed better than you expected?
What elements seemed not as good as you had hoped?
Did your impression of the good and bad (if any) change the more you listened to it?

You are right to note the mental chasm between expectation and reality. I enjoyed being totally objective for a change without any pre-conceptions of intent. I am curious as to how you are filling in this mental chasm...

Cheers,
Frodo