Using DP to sketch the running order of songs: A truly basic question

[otalgia-2000]

Hey everyone

Sorry to trouble you all with what seems like it must be a very rudimentary question, but I've actually never used DP like this before:

I want to import mixes into a DP project and simply use the project as a sketchpad to play around with the order of the mixed songs.

I made a project with two stereo tracks in order to accommodate occasions when I might wish to crossfade from one song to the next, although most of the songs will probably follow each other with the customary silence between them.

But because I know that this will involve at least two and possibly more places where there's a crossfade between mixes, I decided that approaching this in a "linear" fashion -- laying the mix soundbites end-to-end within a single sequence chunk (or one-below-the-other for the crossfades) -- might be more convenient than using the chunks pane to sequence individual selections each in their own Seq. Chunk.

But maybe I'm wrong about that, and chunks is the right way to go about this.

In any case, my question:

Is my hunch correct that, in order for this to work correctly, I will also need to program the conductor track to follow the differing tempos of the selections as they come up in order?

I'm asking because it looked to me like I maybe wasn't deriving the correct total run time from DP's clock readout if I just leave the project in Tempo Slider mode at 120, but it was hard to be sure about that.

Of course I don't want DP to alter the pitch, time, or any other aspect of the imported mixes, and I'm concerned that placing the project under conductor track control might result in alterations to the originals -- unless I'm right on the money with adjusting the conductor track for the different tempos as they come up.

I can do that easily, I just have to confirm that I need to.

This project is only intended to be a fast-n-nasty sketch board -- just to test that my running order is working the way I like.

However if importing each mix into an individual sequence chunk is the "pro method" (to say nothing of "least insane") for this type of undertaking, then I reckon I would still need to set the tempo of each sequence chunk individually in order for the main clock to track the true and accurate elapsed time.

I can see how experimenting with the order of the songs is much easier done right from the chunks pane -- way easier than hauling the soundbites around (and changing the conductor track every time I do).

It's mostly because I do not know how to crossfade between discreet chunks that I decided to place all of the mix soundbites in the same chunk, although I'm getting the feeling that isn't the most elegant solution.

I'm sure this kind of thing is done all the time, but as I say, never at my house!

With thanks,
o-2k

[Tidwells@aol.com]

If you are importing stereo audio files into a DP project/chunk, tempo is irrelevant. Don't even touch the tempo settings and all will be well. Personally, I would import all the the stereo audio files into the same chunk and place them all on the same track, one after the other. Then, if you wish, you can scoot some of the soundbites together and apply a crossfade at the soundbite level. On the other hand, if you place each audio file on a separate track, you may have more control of the fade out/fade in and amount of "overlap" of the fading tracks. I can see that placing each audio file in a separate chunk would make it easier to rearrange the song order. Perhaps someone can comment on how well fading between chunks will or will not work??

Doug

[stubbsonic]

If the songs don't crossfade, you can put them all in one stereo track. For crossfades, drag the x-fading song(s) into a 2nd stereo track. This gives you more detailed control over the separate fade out and fade in shapes.

For working out song orders, start with an order you like, perhaps include markers for each song, then duplicate the chunk and work on a copy. Keep duplicating and adding copies of chunks so you can keep and compare different orders without having to re-make them every time. Keep text track lists for each chunk name.

When working on song orders in linear fashion with 1 or 2 tracks, as described above; as you start playing around with order, you will run into a few little challenges related to how downstream songs are effected by edit moves early in the track. There are cool tricks for how to remove and insert in ways that can minimize hassles.

First, a note about selection. If you're working in the Tracks Overview window, zooming and scrolling are important. Remember to hold down COMMAND to turn grid-snap off, so you can make precise range selections. When you are using the commands below, it's important to include both tracks in your range selection so you are moving everything together. If you are using markers, include the conductor track in your selections as well, and the markers will move with your edits. When choosing an insert point, you can hold down COMMAND (grid-snap off) and click once at the desired location, you'll see a flashing edit-cursor at that one spot-- ready to insert the data at that point.

The two edit commands that are essential for this work are SNIP (COMMAND-j) and SPLICE (COMMAND-k). Snip removes the selection --AND closes the gap of the selection. It puts that range of data into the clipboard. SPLICE pastes the data from the clipboard into the specified tracks, but also moves all post-edit-point data downstream by the length of the splice to make room. So if you splice B between A & C; C is moved later by the length of B. Oooph. Does that even make sense? Probably the manual will describe it better.

NOTE: the SPLICE command will insert the data with your insert point as the upper left if where the data will go.

Another useful technique is soundbite "THROWING". If you have a selected soundbite, and you want to throw it to the left (earlier) such that it it slams up against the previous soundbite's right edge-- hold down the CONTROL key (on mac) and the pointy finger turns into a flat hand. Now drag the soundbite left and release the mouse button (releasing CONTROL immediately is not necessary until after the maneuver).

The following steps are just how I do it, which I confess might be "the hard way":
I change the relative levels of each song using the Bite Gain field-- use track volume automation if you need more control. After I've committed to my final order, with all crossfades, and levels; I then render (record) the entire order to it's own track as one long audio file. This bakes in the order, timings x-fades, and levels. Then I go through in the Sequence Editor window and set the split points (COMMAND-Y) for each song starts/ends. I then name the soundbites, and export them from the Soundbites window.

Hope this helps. I welcome any feedback.

[otalgia-2000]

If you are importing stereo audio files into a DP project/chunk, tempo is irrelevant. Don't even touch the tempo settings and all will be well. Personally, I would import all the the stereo audio files into the same chunk and place them all on the same track, one after the other. Then, if you wish, you can scoot some of the soundbites together and apply a crossfade at the soundbite level. On the other hand, if you place each audio file on a separate track, you may have more control of the fade out/fade in and amount of "overlap" of the fading tracks. I can see that placing each audio file in a separate chunk would make it easier to rearrange the song order. Perhaps someone can comment on how well fading between chunks will or will not work??

Doug

Thank you very much! I really appreciate this, and find myself just a bit surprised (in a self-satisfied way) that my first impulse -- to do this all within one sequence chunk -- finds some validation.

And you've got my thinking completely about the crossfades as well: I'm a bit persnickity about how those feel, and using 2 tracks allowed me to dial in the one I already have right where I want it.

With appreciation,
o-2k

[otalgia-2000]

If the songs don't crossfade, you can put them all in one stereo track. For crossfades, drag the x-fading song(s) into a 2nd stereo track. This gives you separate and more detailed control over the fade out and fade in shapes.

For working out song orders, start with an order you like, perhaps include markers for each song, then duplicate the chunk and work on a copy. Keep duplicating and adding copies of chunks so you can keep and compare different orders without having to re-make them every time. Keep text track lists for each chunk name.

When working on song orders in linear fashion with 1 or 2 tracks, as described above; as you start playing around with order, you will run into a few little challenges-- how downstream songs are effected by edit moves early in the track. There are cool tricks for how to remove and insert in ways that can minimize hassles.

First, a note about selection. If you're working in the Tracks Overview window, zooming and scrolling are important. Remember to hold down COMMAND to turn grid-snap off, so you can make precise range selections. When you are using the commands below, it's important to include both tracks in your range selection so you are moving everything together. If you are using markers, include the conductor track in your selections as well, and the markers will move with your edits. When choosing an insert point, you can hold down COMMAND (grid-snap off) and click once at the desired location, you'll see a flashing edit-cursor at that one spot-- ready to insert the data at that point.

The two edit commands that are essential for this work are SNIP (COMMAND-j) and SPLICE (COMMAND-k). Snip removes the selection --AND closes the gap of the selection. It puts it into the clipboard. SPLICE pastes the data in the clipboard into the specified tracks, but also moves the post-edit-point data downstream to make room. So if you splice B between A & C; C is moved later by the length of B. Oooph. Does that even make sense? Probably the manual will describe it better.

NOTE: the SPLICE command will insert the data with your insert point as the upper left if where the data will go.

Another useful technique is soundbite "THROWING". If you have a selected soundbite, and you want to throw it to the left (earlier) such that it it slams up against the previous soundbite's right edge-- hold down the CONTROL key (on mac) and the pointy finger turns into a flat hand. Now drag the soundbite left and release the mouse button (releasing CONTROL is not necessary until after the maneuver).

The following steps are just how I do it, which I confess might be "the hard way":
I change the relative levels of each song using the Bite Gain field. After I've committed to my final order, with all crossfades and Bite Gain levels; I then render (record) the entire order to it's own track as one long audio file. This bakes in the order, timings x-fades, and levels. Then I go through in the Sequence Editor window and set the split points (COMMAND-Y) for each song starts/ends. I then name the soundbites, and export them from the Soundbites window.

Hope this helps. I welcome any feedback.

Holy cow, this is great -- HUGE thanks. Again, I'm happy to see that I didn't have the wrong idea entirely at the outset -- configuring the combination all within in one sequence.

But the finesse detail of using different chunks to store alternate orders -- that's golden, thanks a boatload!

And yes -- throwing. I've been loving a good throw since 9 (I didn't start trying it until then. I think 8 had might've that, but I was just getting my feet wet then.)

Again, my warm appreciation to you and Tidwells.

o-2k

[otalgia-2000]

If you are importing stereo audio files into a DP project/chunk, tempo is irrelevant. Don't even touch the tempo settings and all will be well.
Doug

Hello again, Doug

Thanks particularly for this information -- sorry I neglected to point it up in my previous reply. You've saved me a pile of work right there!

Just asking here for a quick clarification to complete my understanding:
- Is it that leaving DP in Tempo Slider mode at 120 will also derive accurate total running time on the clock,
- or does that only mean that I need not harbor concerns about alterations to the imported audio, and I should confirm running times some other way? (I had the impression that total time is connected to tempo, but perhaps that is only when the project is running under Conductor Track control....)

Again, super helpful, super-appreciated -- both of you!
o-2k

[otalgia-2000]

- Is it that leaving DP in Tempo Slider mode at 120 will also derive accurate total running time on the clock,
- or does that only mean that I need not harbor concerns about alterations to the imported audio, and I should confirm running times some other way? (I had the impression that total time is connected to tempo, but perhaps that is only when the project is running under Conductor Track control....)

Pondering this question a bit more I think I've realized that time is the Immutable Container and that the measures are elastic within time.

If I'm on the right track with that, then "the time is the time is the time" (as a friend of mine might say) -- it isn't affected by tempo.

But measures are -- either more or less of them will fit into the same amount of time depending upon tempo. But tempo never affects how slowly or quickly time passes.

Boredom might have a bearing on that though, so it behooves one to keep that time interesting!

o-2k

[stubbsonic]

You can customize the counter display to show you elapsed time in a couple formats.

You're right that tempo has no bearing on this as the audio is de-linked from tempo in this process. You can even tell DP not to bother with it's various beat-analysis functions.

Make sure you define your Sample Rate and bit depth before you bring audio in.

[otalgia-2000]

Make sure you define your Sample Rate and bit depth before you bring audio in.

Yet another savvy (...and appreciated!) gem of wisdom.

Thanks again!
o-2k