Digital Performer 11.33 version

Discussion of Digital Performer use, optimization, tips and techniques on MacOS.

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Michael Canavan
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Re: Digital Performer 11.33 version

Post by Michael Canavan »

bayswater wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2024 4:42 pm
dewdman42 wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2024 4:35 pm cleaning up the UI,

modernize the UI
What would you change in the UI?
First off think of this as if you used another DAW because most people testing out Pro Tools will be coming from another DAW. Most people when starting out are going to gravitate towards the top three or four DAWs the ones with marketing push, Cubase, Pro Tools or Logic etc. They even come from Live, FL Studio etc.

First thing they will do is look at the built in browser, in the case of DP that's a relatively new thing with the Content Browser. They will see a list of locations, presets that do nothing and an empty list of Clippings. There is no indication of an audition selection feature for things like drum loops etc. but you select an audio file in the locations section and it plays, at a volume level determined by a volume slider in the Preferences section nowhere near the Content Browser, and it does not conform to the project tempo.

Right away Which area do they start in? Tracks or Sequence? This is one area of DP that never really gets mentioned by us end users because eventually we futz around enough to realize why Tracks might be useful, but again, if we're only recording 16-24 tracks of audio into DP we might never use Tracks. This like Chunks is an area that's completely different than other DAWs.

So they get to reading figure out Clippings, and set up 25 tracks with complex routing for their small orchestra projects that they can now save as a clipping, and drop into songs where that might be needed. When they do this, nothing plays, after quite some time they figure out that the outputs of the tracks they dragged into the project from clippings are italicized, that they have to select the track with "Audio Out 1-2" and change it to... drumroll, Audio Out 1-2.

Chunks, I think initially most users get confused by Chunks, even jumping from DP2.5 to DP5 with a lot of time off in between had me confused. Chunks were useful in a completely different way when I worked entirely in external MIDI hardware until the bitter end. You could drag Chunks into Chunks with little thought about it if it was all MIDI tracks. When I jumped back to DP around 5 I put myself in a few corners trying to use Chunks in ways that aren't really that productive.

I could go on, the UX of DP is something you learn to navigate it's not at all intuitive. Some of this is due to complexity, but some is just areas of the DAW that didn't get polished before market like no audio file audition volume knob in the browsers, soundbites etc. windows, or DPs seeming inability to know it's own Clippings audio out routings are exactly the same as the current project.

I personally think this stands in the way of DPs market share. The fact that if you were an electronic musician you would be confronted with an arcane setup for auditioning files with no tempo lock, if you were a classical/large MIDI project musician you would be wondering how to fix clippings, and if you were a recording musician you would be navigating Tracks and Sequence wondering what to use?

Some of this is DPs complexity and just learning DP for sure, but some of this is areas of DP that are not really that great, who uses the Content Browser for anything besides Clippings? A massive amount of younger users are used to basic elements of DAWs like the browser being pretty useful, I would say without question Logic, Cubase, Reaper, Live etc. etc. have better browsers.

This is why I think most of us have been using DP for 25+ years, it takes time to navigate the areas of DP that are just flatly UX stupid before you see how uniquely powerful it is. That's not as true of other DAWs, except Reaper, and Reaper is $69 for most people who use it.
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Re: Digital Performer 11.33 version

Post by James Steele »

mikehalloran wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 8:30 am
I guess Steinberg offers some hardware?
Steinberg is Yamaha.
Yes I know that. Everybody knows that. My point was that there's not much Steinberg-branded hardware and they haven't leveraged Yamaha's considerable capabilities in making Cubase/Nuendo centric hardware like Avid has for Pro Tools.
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Re: Digital Performer 11.33 version

Post by Michael Canavan »

One other thing. I don't see DP going anywhere anytime soon. Yes competition is larger than it was in 1996, 2005 etc. but the customer base for home studios is exponentially larger.

I have a hard time believing there are less than 20k DP users, 20,000 users worldwide is a possible 4 million in upgrades every three years or so. That's more than enough money for 3-5 developers to work on DP during that time and still turn a solid profit.
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Re: Digital Performer 11.33 version

Post by dewdman42 »

Michael Canavan wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 11:47 am I have a hard time believing there are less than 20k DP users, 20,000 users worldwide is a possible 4 million in upgrades every three years or so. That's more than enough money for 3-5 developers to work on DP during that time and still turn a solid profit.
I don't know if they have 20k users at this point honestly...but even so....~$1M a year in revenue is not enough to do squat. and 3-5 developers are not going to cut it. If that is the current situation for DP and MOTU...then its a dead man walkin'
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Re: Digital Performer 11.33 version

Post by Michael Canavan »

dewdman42 wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 12:12 pm
Michael Canavan wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 11:47 am I have a hard time believing there are less than 20k DP users, 20,000 users worldwide is a possible 4 million in upgrades every three years or so. That's more than enough money for 3-5 developers to work on DP during that time and still turn a solid profit.
I don't know if they have 20k users at this point honestly...but even so....~$1M a year in revenue is not enough to do squat. and 3-5 developers are not going to cut it. If that is the current situation for DP and MOTU...then its a dead man walkin'
Almost all DAW development teams are 3-5 people. Cockos Reaper is 2, maybe 3 now, Bitwig is the same etc. I'm not a developer but it was explained to me that over 4-5 people it gets to where you're breaking things the others are working on.
You I suppose could break out plugin development from that, but I think in comparison to Logic, Bitwig, Live etc. you can see that's not MOTU's focus, their paid plugins were a joint UVI venture etc.
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Re: Digital Performer 11.33 version

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Michael Canavan wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 11:47 am One other thing. I don't see DP going anywhere anytime soon. Yes competition is larger than it was in 1996, 2005 etc. but the customer base for home studios is exponentially larger.
I don't see it going anywhere either... although my concern is that for someone like myself who is an outlier (that is, a guy who is wanting to use deeper features of his Avid control surface than levels and panning and have a more seamless experience with outboard analog gear), MOTU doesn't have the resources to address my concerns in a timely manner.

For someone who is working completely in-the-box and doesn't care about better EUCON support, which is likely a big majority of users, they'll be just fine.
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Re: Digital Performer 11.33 version

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Michael Canavan wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 1:01 pm Almost all DAW development teams are 3-5 people. Cockos Reaper is 2, maybe 3 now, Bitwig is the same etc. I'm not a developer but it was explained to me that over 4-5 people it gets to where you're breaking things the others are working on.
You I suppose could break out plugin development from that, but I think in comparison to Logic, Bitwig, Live etc. you can see that's not MOTU's focus, their paid plugins were a joint UVI venture etc.
hogwash. Steinberg has way more than 5 people working on cubase and so does Apple. And by the way there is a lot more involved then 5 software devs sitting in a room writing code. you have to at least square that number to include various other personal that are involved in managing, project planning, marketing efforts, support, testing, etc, etc... You cannot fund that even close with $1M a year, much less profit from it. I am a retired software engineer and spent most of my career starting from a silicon valley startup and as the product grew we went from 5 original devs to 1500 people, maybe 1/3 of whom were devs and all the complexity that goes along with a product that has grown, has customers to support, bugs to fix, you need special people hired just to do IT to support it all, and people that do nothing but manage the bug tracking system, etc.. it just goes on and on and gets bigger and bigger and there is no way around it...at some point you either continue making enough revenue to support all that and keep the money coming in...or you implode.

Bitwig is a different animal, it's still a relatively small and simple piece of software compared to a complex beast like dp, cubase and LogicPro. Reaper is small I get it, but in that case its a genius multi-millionaire doing it as a passion project and all rules are off...but there is a reason the reaper GUI looks like ass FWIW
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Digital Performer 11.33 version

Post by James Steele »

Michael Canavan wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 1:01 pmAlmost all DAW development teams are 3-5 people. Cockos Reaper is 2, maybe 3 now, Bitwig is the same etc. I'm not a developer but it was explained to me that over 4-5 people it gets to where you're breaking things the others are working on.
I could see that. Might be that the legacy codebase is some of the problem? I'm not suggesting I understand these things. I know there are some apps (probably not as complex as a DAW) where they use github or other places/systems to manager multiple programmers working on the same app. May not be practical with DP. I suppose it depends on how well they've "commented" code or documented what they've done. May also depend on what tools they are using. I imagine that MOTU has to use specific tools to maintain a Mac version and a Windows version. I can't help but wonder if they've made much in the way of inroads with Windows users?

You I suppose could break out plugin development from that, but I think in comparison to Logic, Bitwig, Live etc. you can see that's not MOTU's focus, their paid plugins were a joint UVI venture etc.
I'm trying to recall the details, but to be brutally honest, MOTU has a little bit of a history of abandoning apps. MachFive was obviously done with UVI as you allude to, and for whatever reason it was allowed to die. Falcon pretty much picked up where MachFive left off (and. you can actually buy it right now for $149). There's Unisyn. Great app. It was allowed to die. And seems like the other UVI/MOTU plugs like Ethno, Symphonic instrument were allowed to die by lack of updates. I also remember the heady but short lived days of DP Control on iOS. Man, oh man. When it came out it sort of bolstered my unicorn pride. In your face, other DAWs.... look at what we have! Then it was abandoned and left to die... and if I recall correctly with never so much as an explanation or a statement as to why.

I truly want the best for MOTU and DP. Counterintuitively, perhaps, that's precisely why I'm talking about some of these things now.
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Re: Digital Performer 11.33 version

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James Steele wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 2:14 pm
Michael Canavan wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 11:47 am One other thing. I don't see DP going anywhere anytime soon. Yes competition is larger than it was in 1996, 2005 etc. but the customer base for home studios is exponentially larger.
I don't see it going anywhere either... although my concern is that for someone like myself who is an outlier (that is, a guy who is wanting to use deeper features of his Avid control surface than levels and panning and have a more seamless experience with outboard analog gear), MOTU doesn't have the resources to address my concerns in a timely manner.

For someone who is working completely in-the-box and doesn't care about better EUCON support, which is likely a big majority of users, they'll be just fine.
IMO it took them forever to open up to companies for better controller support, and they need to keep at it. No one wants to switch to a DAW and have to change out their hardware. I use the Slate Raven and it's literally a concern. DP and Live are supported, Bitwig and Reaper are not. I unfortunately have to use two different clip launchers in Push 3 for Live and the Novation Launchpad for DP. If I did not own the Raven Push 2 and 3 are very capable 8 tracks at a time mixers with the visual and knob support. So if I just owned Push 3 then Bitwig, Live and Reaper would look that much more appealing.

As it stands I make most controller purchases based on how well they work with DP, since the field is the smallest for DP and I use it the most. Bitwig and Reaper have this guy Moss who is likely collecting a paycheck for his work writing control surface scripts for dozens of hardware controllers, including a "generic flexi" which means you can setup your own even.
https://mossgrabers.de

Should be noted Convert with Moss is a free sampler conversion software. It's pretty fantastic, I bothered to get Translator 7, but it really only does a few formats that Convert with Moss doesn't do. UVI Falcon for instance isn't supported, but you can convert all kinds of formats to Kontakt for instance. :headbang:
,
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Re: Digital Performer 11.33 version

Post by Michael Canavan »

James Steele wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 2:26 pm I could see that. Might be that the legacy codebase is some of the problem? I'm not suggesting I understand these things. I know there are some apps (probably not as complex as a DAW) where they use github or other places/systems to manager multiple programmers working on the same app. May not be practical with DP. I suppose it depends on how well they've "commented" code or documented what they've done. May also depend on what tools they are using. I imagine that MOTU has to use specific tools to maintain a Mac version and a Windows version. I can't help but wonder if they've made much in the way of inroads with Windows users?
I just confirmed it, the main developers of Reaper are just two people who work on the core DAW. Reaper isn't about plugins at all and there are ancillary developers for some of the extensions. Looking at MOTU's LinkedIn it's 5 people working as software developers, one hardware developer and one driver developer. The guesstimate for Cubase is the same 7, but with obviously less focus on audio and MIDI interfaces plus Dorico.

I'm trying to recall the details, but to be brutally honest, MOTU has a little bit of a history of abandoning apps. MachFive was obviously done with UVI as you allude to, and for whatever reason it was allowed to die. Falcon pretty much picked up where MachFive left off (and. you can actually buy it right now for $149). There's Unisyn. Great app. I was allowed to die. And seems like the other UVI/MOTU plugs like Ethno, Symphonic instrument were allowed to die by lack of updates. I also remember the heady but short lived days of DP Control on iOS. Man, oh man. When it came out it sort of bolstered my unicorn pride. In your face, other DAWs.... look at what we have! Then it was abandoned and left to die... and if I recall correctly with never so much as an explanation or a statement as to why.

I truly want the best for MOTU and DP. Counterintuitively, perhaps, that's precisely why I'm talking about some of these things now.
I'm certain the contract that UVI and MOTU had ended and it was decided not to renew it, as UVI wanted to develop M54 (Falcon 1) in house. It by all observation, looks to have been an amicable split, with the UVI Workstation based MOTU Instruments library etc.

I'm certain the developer who made the MOTU iOS app no longer works for MOTU, this is how you get great apps like Absynth from NI just dying for no good reason. I get the impression it's almost as much work to reverse engineer someone's code as it is to write it from scratch, maybe harder in some cases. Apple abandoned SoundDiver from emagic when they bought Emagic, just releasing a beta of the Intel version.

Ugh, it's all of this that makes me glad I mainly play guitar, simple electronics, easily replaceable hardware etc.
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Re: Digital Performer 11.33 version

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dewdman42 wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 2:18 pm
Michael Canavan wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 1:01 pm Almost all DAW development teams are 3-5 people. Cockos Reaper is 2, maybe 3 now, Bitwig is the same etc. I'm not a developer but it was explained to me that over 4-5 people it gets to where you're breaking things the others are working on.
You I suppose could break out plugin development from that, but I think in comparison to Logic, Bitwig, Live etc. you can see that's not MOTU's focus, their paid plugins were a joint UVI venture etc.
hogwash. Steinberg has way more than 5 people working on cubase and so does Apple. And by the way there is a lot more involved then 5 software devs sitting in a room writing code. you have to at least square that number to include various other personal that are involved in managing, project planning, marketing efforts, support, testing, etc, etc... You cannot fund that even close with $1M a year, much less profit from it. I am a retired software engineer and spent most of my career starting from a silicon valley startup and as the product grew we went from 5 original devs to 1500 people, maybe 1/3 of whom were devs and all the complexity that goes along with a product that has grown, has customers to support, bugs to fix, you need special people hired just to do IT to support it all, and people that do nothing but manage the bug tracking system, etc.. it just goes on and on and gets bigger and bigger and there is no way around it...at some point you either continue making enough revenue to support all that and keep the money coming in...or you implode.

Bitwig is a different animal, it's still a relatively small and simple piece of software compared to a complex beast like dp, cubase and LogicPro. Reaper is small I get it, but in that case its a genius multi-millionaire doing it as a passion project and all rules are off...but there is a reason the reaper GUI looks like ass FWIW
Hey I'm not sure but it seems like you responded without reading the follow ups? MOTU are around 25 people according to LinkedIn, 7 of them are hardware and software developers, the rest are tech support, management and marketing etc. Reaper are literally two main developers for the DAW, that's 100% confirmable, there are about 5-7 people that do various ancillary functions like Lua script development etc. (mostly for free), but the core of the DAW is developed by two people.

Bitwig are about the same size at what looks like 21 people here. I think a safe bet for the developer side would be 5-8 people. They also concentrate pretty heavily on plugin development and their own version of Max/MSP called the Grid. https://www.bitwig.com/about/

MOTU do have the hardware as an income as well, so some of the cost of tech support and probably even the software for it is also a factor in keeping DP running. Don't get me wrong, I really think MOTU need to figure out a way to get DP to a larger audience because absolutely it's being propped up by an over 50 crowd of users who had it on their radar for decades or have always used it. I know only a handful of people in their 30's using it from online discussions and not a soul under 30. That's a problem that no other DAW has that I know of anyway.

It's why I'm happy they did Clips, and I want them to worry about the UX for getting things done quickly. IMO the younger crowd is far more UX oriented and don't have the patience to figure out where the volume is for auditioning audio etc.
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Re: Digital Performer 11.33 version

Post by mhschmieder »

dewdman42 wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 2:18 pm
Michael Canavan wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 1:01 pm Almost all DAW development teams are 3-5 people. Cockos Reaper is 2, maybe 3 now, Bitwig is the same etc. I'm not a developer but it was explained to me that over 4-5 people it gets to where you're breaking things the others are working on.
You I suppose could break out plugin development from that, but I think in comparison to Logic, Bitwig, Live etc. you can see that's not MOTU's focus, their paid plugins were a joint UVI venture etc.
hogwash. Steinberg has way more than 5 people working on cubase and so does Apple. And by the way there is a lot more involved then 5 software devs sitting in a room writing code. you have to at least square that number to include various other personal that are involved in managing, project planning, marketing efforts, support, testing, etc, etc... You cannot fund that even close with $1M a year, much less profit from it. I am a retired software engineer and spent most of my career starting from a silicon valley startup and as the product grew we went from 5 original devs to 1500 people, maybe 1/3 of whom were devs and all the complexity that goes along with a product that has grown, has customers to support, bugs to fix, you need special people hired just to do IT to support it all, and people that do nothing but manage the bug tracking system, etc.. it just goes on and on and gets bigger and bigger and there is no way around it...at some point you either continue making enough revenue to support all that and keep the money coming in...or you implode.

Bitwig is a different animal, it's still a relatively small and simple piece of software compared to a complex beast like dp, cubase and LogicPro. Reaper is small I get it, but in that case its a genius multi-millionaire doing it as a passion project and all rules are off...but there is a reason the reaper GUI looks like ass FWIW
Luxurious! Silicon Valley companies have the dough. Most audio companies don't. I have spent the past 26 years of my career doing audio software of one kind or another, and am lucky when I am not the sole developer, with a max of two. And these are products that are fairly close to the complexity of a DAW except for the challenges of real-time audio.

I can't begin to guess at the developer team size for various DAW's and whether some are much bigger than others, but the feature set differences and reliability aren't on such a different scale that any vendor with a 1500+ team is getting great bang-for-buck vs. the max-5 teams. :mrgreen:
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Re: Digital Performer 11.33 version

Post by bayswater »

And Emile Tobenfeld did KCS / Omega all by himself. He was prepared to add Audio, but no one would fund it.
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Re: Digital Performer 11.33 version

Post by dewdman42 »

mhschmieder wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 4:43 pm Luxurious! Silicon Valley companies have the dough. Most audio companies don't.
I don't disagree with that, but labeling it as luxurious is naive at best. I can assure you all the companies in silicon valley are just as concerned about cutting costs and producing as much as they can for the lowest possible cost...as anyone else. They do tend to deal in much bigger projects and numbers but its all relative. everyone at all levels is competing against competitors, using the resources they ahve available to try to create more then their competition and win the market share. If your team stays small, there is only so far you can go.

what some of you don't seem to realize is what all is involved in not only developing software but all the other ancillary things involved. some of you are seriously under valuing the cost and effort involved in both developing, selling and supporting a software product of any complexity. Small and simple projects are one thing, but as it gets bigger and more complex with more customers....the costs to handle all of that and to continue developing it rise exponentially. If you keep it small and simple and don't need to add a lot of new stuff all the time, it can certainly be maintened with a couple people sure, but if you grow it and need to keep growing it, and supporting it, and documenting it, and promoting it, and marketing future developing for it, and managing all the resources related to all of those things, then as it gets bigger, the costs go up exponentially. The more people involved, the less efficient it is...but still necessary in order to grow bigger. At some point there is a ceiling you cannot realistically get above without growing the company into more people, more resources, more costs....and the sales will have to be there to match it. if not, then you can't grow it and you will fundamentally be hamstrung by how much you can realistically do.

But hey believe as you wish.
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Re: Digital Performer 11.33 version

Post by James Steele »

All I will say is from what I've read it's tough for DAW developers to find programmer talent because good programmers can make much better money, with better benefits in just about any other industry. Music related software is rather niche. Someone good can make better money working for Boeing or Lockheed than MOTU.
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