Digital Performer 11.33 version

[bayswater]

cleaning up the UI,

modernize the UI

What would you change in the UI?

[dewdman42]

I'm just throwing out simple very generic areas that MOTU can and should improve DP in order to attract a larger share of the market. I personally don't have any particular problem with the GUI and if you asked me what I want them to work on it would be other things that benefit me and probably things that don't benefit you or anyone else quite as much as me. That's why marketing dept exists, to determine what changes will attract the largest amount of market share.

One thing I personally do not enjoy is debating on the internet with fellow users of a product about how the product should or should not be updated in the future. I'm just sayin, its on MOTU to determine what will draw marketshare and without question, simply fixing bugs will not attract new market share. It has to create strong incentive for people to reconsider using DP over Cubase, Logic, S1 and Reaper, the other big 4. A few more too sure.

[James Steele]

On the other hand if you relegate improvements down to just mundane things like fixing bugs and keeping it working on the latest version of MacOS...their user pool will slowly diminish towards nil.

I would submit that it's probably already diminishing, perhaps due to the fact that the "mundane things like fixing bugs" isn't happening and users will peel off as their frustration grows. I like seeing new features and DP gaining market share, but perhaps before you gain marketshare, you have to first stop the bleeding?

[dewdman42]

In reality it has to be a little of both. I use the other DAW's too, Cubase, Logic...they all have bugs and all their users complain about the same way as here. None of them are exempt from this. People jump ship to other DAW's hoping to have less bugs and usually find out they are there too. These are VERY complex pieces of software, and the total market for such a complex piece of software is not nearly as big as say it is for something like Adobe's tools, etc.. So in comparison MOTU and other DAW makers have to use an extremely small crew of developers compared to what some of those other products can do, yet deal with extremely high user demands and software complexity. so...really...I I don't like the bugs either...especially when it's "crashing" but on the other hand, we have to be reasonable...it will never run perfectly. Cubase will never run perfectly. I can tell you for certain LogicPro most definitely does not run perfectly...

Best thing is to hope MOTU can get more market share, which means more money, which means more developer resources, and ultimately that will result also in more of the bugs being addressed more frequently.

[James Steele]

It's not good that James is unhappy with DP. One of the reasons I use it is that I can get help here with things that don't seem to work or are difficult to figure out. If the forum disappeared, I'd be thinking more about alternatives.

The forum will not disappear. I'm just having to use another DAW from time to time until MOTU fixes a couple of things that are very important to me. But hey... keeping existing users happy by fixing "mundane things" doesn't gain market share I'm reading in this topic. Great... as long as they can gain market share faster than unhappy users peel off, they'll be in good shape. I can tell you they're not going to gain marketshare from anyone who relies heavily on Avid S1s (or other EUCON control surfaces) or that uses outboard hardware. I've said here before, if anybody in that category approached me personally and asked me if I could recommend DP, I'd have to honestly say no. At least for now. Maybe some day when they can fix those things.

[dewdman42]

DP needs to find its niche again. For a long time it was the tool of choice for film score guys but a lot of them have switched over to Logic and Cubase in droves. A few still stay with DP, it's what they know. I have preached many times to people about the virtues of DP with chunks and many other features...but nobody seems to care other then other devoted DP users who are already in. so what is it about Cubase and logic that attracts so many people and DP doesn't seem to? I'd say for one thing, LogicPro is dirt cheap. And it's very easy to learn and use. It's not as powerful as Dp in most ways, but what it does do it does very well with a very approachable GUI. It has problems too, but it's only $200 and that right there is reason enough for a lot of people. Apple must be losing money on it, or uses it as a loss leader to sell mac's I dunno. But anyway, that is hard to compete against. Steinberg on the other hand is the one true competitor to DP...and Steinberg has HUGE marketing efforts made on their software...where MOTU's biggest marketing efforts seems to be on their hardware...and I would guess they are making a lot more money on their hardware...Steinberg controls the VST protocol, and they have quite a lot of software products now and a huge development team. Its pretty hard for MOTU to compete with them now in terms of accomplishing things. It just is what it is.

MOTU will have to do something truly amazing beyond anything we can conceive of right now in order to become more relevant to more people.

Hey..I'm still a fan.. I love chunks. A lot. And the film scoring tools in DP. I'll keep it around if for no other reason to use the film scoring tools if I get a film scoring gig. But to be honest I'm leaning more and more towards making Cubase my primary daw because of the momentum it has. It doesn't have my favorite DP feature, chunks...but it's extremely solid and tons of people are using it. I also happen to love Dorico right now. But like you guys, I would love to see MOTU improve DP, fix problematic areas, fix bugs, add features too. It's going to need to add features in order to compete. They have to fix bugs to avoid ending the product. They have to do both things. If they can't, then the product will go the way of Opcode Vision and other amazing music software products of the past.

[James Steele]

Best thing is to hope MOTU can get more market share, which means more money, which means more developer resources, and ultimately that will result also in more of the bugs being addressed more frequently.

Go on YouTube some time. Search "Cubase"... "Pro Tools" and "Logic." Then search "Digital Performer." If DP's future depends on getting people already using those DAWs to switch that's a tough battle. It would require a large investment in development time and marketing budget. Being a privately owned corporation, I think it's pretty clear that MOTU does not have the resources of Apple, Avid, Yamaha/Steinberg or Presonus which is now owned by Fender. It's a David vs. Goliath battle here. We all know that DP is the "Other" choice when we go to a plug-in developer's website and fill out a support form.

If DP is going to gain market share, they really need to do much better at social media--have much more content on YouTube. Because, I think you're perhaps better off trying to attract people just getting into home recording than pull experienced users away from any of the other major DAWs. And that's hard too, since Apple gives away Garage Band which is the gateway drug for Logic, for which you pay what? $199 once and get your upgrades for free. I know there is Performer Lite out there.

Again... if MOTU is going to be about gaining marketshare, they need to strike a balance and take care not to lose too many existing users while they do it... even if that means doing the "mundane things" like fixing bugs. I'm willing to compromise though. How 'bout just fixing bugs that have been around for a year or more?

[dewdman42]

well I agree James, but to be honest, the future of DP is more likely to be over and out if it continues on the trend you are pointing out. And you may not be wrong..but that is the just the reality. Look what's happening to Finale now. It can happen.

[James Steele]

I'd say for one thing, LogicPro is dirt cheap. And it's very easy to learn and use. It's not as powerful as Dp in most ways, but what it does do it does very well with a very approachable GUI. It has problems too, but it's only $200 and that right there is reason enough for a lot of people. Apple must be losing money on it, or uses it as a loss leader to sell mac's I dunno.

Right... and as I said before I saw your post... Apple pushes out Garage Band to the people who are new to this whole thing as their "gateway drug" for Logic. It's difficult to keep up with that. And I think you're absolutely right. It's there to sell Macs. You probably remember that immediately upon Apple acquiring eMagic (original developer of Logic) they killed off the Windows version. I remember how upset the Windows Logic crowd was. It was completely transparent that the whole idea was to push people to buy Macs.

[dewdman42]

100%

LogicPro is stiff competition for sure...because of that fact. But it hasn't stopped Steinberg. They continue to come out regularly with Cubase upgrades, which always have just enough new featurism to get all their users to jump on the bandwagon and upgrade. They have a lot of momentum. The cost of owning and using cubase is WAY higher then LogicPro, but there are plenty of people out there choosing Cubase over LogicPro. The same can be the case for DP, but MOTU does have to step up its game IMHO in order to do so.

The alternative would be back away and simply maintain status quo, don't add any new features, get whatever user base they ahve to pay a subscription in order to keep it going for as long as possible maintaining it, fixing bugs., I think there are some people who will happily pay an annual fee for that sort of thing, but many will not. we live in a world now with so much free and cheap stuff..people will demand new features in order to keep paying. so...the user base will slowly shrink that way. Finale is a good example. sibelius in my opinion is headed in the same direction. Protools is different because they do have professional relevance as many people in the industry still consider it the golden important tool that MUST be present in the studio for various reasons...and those kinds of people are the kinds that will gladly pay a subscription fee regardless of new features. But I don't perceive DP to have the same kind of status as ProTools in that regard. Could be wrong.

[James Steele]

well I agree James, but to be honest, the future of DP is more likely to be over and out if it continues on the trend you are pointing out. And you may not be wrong..but that is the just the reality. Look what's happening to Finale now. It can happen.

I'm not privy to MOTU's financials and trust me... I'm still on Team Unicorn here. I desperately want to see DP continue to flourish. For DP to gain ground it would probably take a very major investment of capital (for development time), a really kickass version of DP12, and a very strong marketing push or at least start leveraging social media better.

Hey... I'm no expert. The silly thing is if they could fix two things, I'd be happy as a clam. But I recognize that my gripes likely put me amongst a small minority of users, so strategically MOTU needs to focus on other fixes and features. I get it.

[James Steele]

100%

LogicPro is stiff competition for sure...because of that fact. But it hasn't stopped Steinberg. They continue to come out regularly with Cubase upgrades, which always have just enough new featurism to get all their users to jump on the bandwagon and upgrade. They have a lot of momentum. The cost of owning and using cubase is WAY higher then LogicPro, but there are plenty of people out there choosing Cubase over LogicPro. The same can be the case for DP, but MOTU does have to step up its game IMHO in order to do so.

Really interesting conversation here. Thanks. I now have FIVE DAWs on my Mac: DP, Pro Tools, Logic Pro, Cubase Pro, and Studio One. All of them the most current versions. DP, of course is still my daily driver and I don't see that changing for a while. But at a certain point, something happened that made me think to myself "I need to see what else is out there." I can't pinpoint it, but that happened.

I have dabbled in Cubase a little bit and I do feel somewhat drawn to it because it just feels FAST. Apparently there's a love/hate thing with the UI, but I like how responsive it feels. Also, it seems like the DAW wars are heating up because there are periodic sales and I don't recall the Cubase was ridiculously expensive. There was a sale... might have been a competitive cross grade. Seems like every DAW these days is trying to gain market share and getting more aggressive on pricing.

The alternative would be back away and simply maintain status quo, don't add any new features, get whatever user base they ahve to pay a subscription in order to keep it going for as long as possible maintaining it, fixing bugs., I think there are some people who will happily pay an annual fee for that sort of thing, but many will not. we live in a world now with so much free and cheap stuff..people will demand new features in order to keep paying. so...the user base will slowly shrink that way.

Actually, I would never suggest not adding any new features. When I floated the idea of some sort of "support plan" along the lines of Avid or Presonus, the hope was that increased revenue would allow MOTU to perhaps hire more programmers so they could fix bugs WHILE also developing new features. I mean it's not a good analogy, but say I'm living in a house and the toilet in one of the bathrooms hasn't worked in years, I might wanna take a look at that before I start in on the built in barbecue for the back porch? More money might mean I can afford a plumber... and the guy working on the barbecue.

Protools is different because they do have professional relevance as many people in the industry still consider it the golden important tool that MUST be present in the studio for various reasons...and those kinds of people are the kinds that will gladly pay a subscription fee regardless of new features. But I don't perceive DP to have the same kind of status as ProTools in that regard. Could be wrong.

You're probably not wrong. And a lot of it is kind of silly because as we all know not all Pro Tools "is created equal." I remember Pro Tools was (and is I guess) such a buzzword that years ago I remember people who had the most basic home studio built around Pro Tools M-Box systems would have with their noses in the air because they could say they had (a severely dumbed down version of) Pro Tools. I guess Pro Tools still has the image because Avid still has high end solutions that most mere mortals can't afford that I would guess are mostly owned by large clients. Although they are putting out hardware that isn't ridiculously expensive like the S1 and Dock which coupled with iPads or tablets are very capable and certainly "look the business." (My S3 that I got for $2k used couple with an iPad running Avid Control makes for a very formidable and powerful control surface solution. IMHO, EUCON is vastly more capable than Mackie protocol.)

Seems like Avid and Presonus both have much more broad hardware product lines than MOTU. I guess Steinberg offers some hardware? I wonder what would happen if they tapped into Yamaha's potential there more in the future? Apple seems content to leave the audio hardware game to third parties. Probably smart. Don't think they want to upset those folks. I did hear that Apple hired away a guy who was pretty high up in Universal Audio not long ago, so I do wonder what that's about.

Anyway... I recognize that I've taken this discussion a bit too far afield already. Ugh.

[EMRR]

MOTU AVB devices haven't connected and maintained connection well since the move to silicon. TB or USB.

I can't address issues I have no experience with, but I haven't had any issues with the AVB connection between my 828es and my 24Ai.

This sort of underscores the YMMV principle that only seems to get worse as our setups become more complex.

I have very few 3rd party plugs, and the number of current product plugs that STILL require DP and PT to be opened under Rosetta is a pain in the ass. Developers in major international companies still aren't bothering to make their products compatible almost 4 years in. I have a couple 3rd party plugs that open in DP without DP being Rosetta but PT needs to be under Rosetta to use them.

If you're using Audio Units, it shouldn't be necessary to open DP under Rosetta. Shouldn't being the operative word here. Unfortunately, that's not always the case.

Thought I'd responded last night, apparently didn't take!

Yeah....why I started the post with 'entropy'.

Soundfield by RODE is a pre-silicon AU, as are my Stillwell plugs. RODE requires DP and PT to be under Rosetta. Stillwell doesn't in DP, does in PT.

You'd think 4 years into the Silicon era RODE would update the plug associated with a current product microphone, and I've written them, and they responded they had no plans to update it. There are other ambisonic encoder plugs, but this one has the embedded EQ for their mic. Frustrating.

I've had AVB connection problems across the entire life of the AVB interfaces, MOTU swapped out my interfaces in 2018 suspecting an early adopter firmware issue, and things improved, but it's all been worse since on the Silicon systems. Various AVB updaters have had better/worse responsiveness, I can usually tell immediately which it's gonna be. I've learned since 2022 to expect an immediate reboot for the computer to see the interfaces 80-90% of the time. The AVB browser mixer has consistently had graphics bugs, channels will appear to be turned on and they're not, the metering hasn't displayed anything at all 95% of the time, it's a surprise when I can see it in the mixer view. I have to look at the matrix view to see signal indication if in question. Lately it's mostly unresponsive under Safari, best in Firefox.

It's always something with complex systems.

[pencilina]

Anyway... I recognize that I've taken this discussion a bit too far afield already. Ugh.

Naw! It's the invisible writing on the invisible wall being interpreted with a bunch of useful perspectives. I hope DP can pull through.

[mikehalloran]

I guess Steinberg offers some hardware?

Steinberg is Yamaha.