Thunderbolt/USB 4, and MOTU HW

[steavis]

Hi All,
Not sure if this is the right place to gripe/ask about this, but...

It appears that Intel is killing Thunderbolt 1/2 backwards compatibility in Thunderbolt 4 via their latest firmware. Furthermore, they (Intel) are sort of gaslighting about how TB4 was "never backward compatible with TB1/2" though it has worked for years. This is probably related to a security issue, but rather than fix the problem they're just deleting the compatibility.

I've got an ASUS motherboard with TB4 (Z690i) that I use with my 828ES via both the Apple and Startech TB3->TB2 adapter. I got it in Dec 2021 and I've been really happy with it - enough so that I bought an LP32, Stage B16, and an AVB switch to do live automation and recording. I'd buy an 8A too if I could find one (supply chain ).

A few months ago ASUS pushed a BIOS update that patched firmware for Thunderbolt to NVM v36, and it killed my Thunderbolt connection to the 828ES. Several others on ASUS's forums are complaining about the same issue, and after enough griping (rather than fix it) they added a disclaimer to their BIOS updates page:

"Thunderbolt 1/2 devices will no longer be supported by BIOS [xxxx] due to a change made by Intel® regarding the update of Thunderbolt firmware to NVM 36"

Searching around, it seems other TB4 users are having the same issue with TB1/2 hardware as they upgrade to new machines. Sometimes the adapters work, sometimes they don't, and sometimes they work until the system auto-updates (as in my case). I'm not a Mac person, but I've seen anecdotal reports that the newest mcThings with TB4 are also affected.

MOTU is still (supposedly) manufacturing and supporting their Thunderbolt devices. If, as it seems, Intel is going to drop support for TB1/2 going forward, what are they, and we, going to do? UA, Focusrite, LYNX, and others have all started moving their product lines to Thunderbolt 3. As far as I know, MOTU has no TB3+ devices and only a few USB3 devices. My 828ES is 15 months old. My Firewire devices were in service for 15 years (M-Audio Firewire 1814, ProFire Lightbridge).

If no new PCs and Macs with Thunderbolt 4 can talk to any TB2 devices, MOTU's Thunderbolt products are effectively paperweights unless you're willing to accept USB2, which I cannot due to its limitations and general awfulness. I can't find any products currently being manufactured that will add a TB2 port to a new PC.

MOTU isn't saying anything about their upcoming plans, and as nice as that would be, I don't expect them to do so. They won't even tell their biggest resellers about availability - I've been asking for delivery ETA on the 8A since May 2022 and I just get "hopefully Q2 2023". It feels like the hardware product line is being neglected and falling behind, which is a major bummer since it seems like some of the better bang-for-buck gear out there.

I dunno, is this concerning to anyone else? Have you heard anything about this?

[chlorinedream]

I'd like to hear more about this. Are there issues with connecting to M2 Macs via Thunderbolt?

[mikehalloran]

It appears that Intel is killing Thunderbolt 1/2 backwards compatibility in Thunderbolt 4 via their latest firmware

I've seen no reason to believe that's true. Intel owns and licenses Thunderbolt.

I'd like to hear more about this.

https://www.motunation.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=72734

Are there issues with connecting to M2 Macs via Thunderbolt?

Nope. Apple follows the spec.

[jm12]

It appears that Intel is killing Thunderbolt 1/2 backwards compatibility in Thunderbolt 4 via their latest firmware

I've seen no reason to believe that's true. Intel owns and licenses Thunderbolt.

Just for posterity- that's exactly what they did, at least in the PC world. Most of the conversation around this is at the link Mike posted: viewtopic.php?t=72734

[mikehalloran]

It appears that Intel is killing Thunderbolt 1/2 backwards compatibility in Thunderbolt 4 via their latest firmware

I've seen no reason to believe that's true. Intel owns and licenses Thunderbolt.

Just for posterity- that's exactly what they did, at least in the PC world. A TB4 dock is now required to connect to TB1/2 devices. Most of the conversation around this is at the link Mike posted: viewtopic.php?t=72734

Huh? That thread from last November proves nothing except that how manufacturers implement Thunderbolt still seems to be a problem for many Windows machines. It appears that following Intel's standards and protocols is not a high priority for some companies. That a TB4 hub can work actually confirms the protocol is not the problem; implementation is.

According to Intel, who owns and licenses Thunderbolt, TB4 is backward compatible to TB1.

None of this affects the Macintosh since Apple follows the protocol and helped develop it. MOTU's TB devices are all Thunderbolt 1. They work with the Apple TB2–TB3 adapter just fine into TB4 ports. The only differences between TB3 and TB4 on a Mac are the number of devices that may be connected simultaneously to a port and the supported charging voltages.

https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en ... -vs-4.html

In my own testing, I have found that USB 4 cables and storage boxes, besides being TB4/3 compatible also connect with USB 2/1.1 (older MOTU MIDI units such as my MTP AV USB are USB 1.1). This was a pleasant surprise since Intel certified Thunderbolt 3/4 cables and boxes will not always connect to USB (though the latest Apple TB4 cables do). That the latest USB 4 gear is less expensive is icing on the cake. Fortunately, I found this out while the return windows from OWC and Amazon were still open and that saved me a nice bit of coin.

[jm12]

First off, TB 1/2 does not seem to be compatible with TB4 for Windows (or Linux) even with a hub. That was a misstatement on my part based on some promising but ultimately misleading initial testing and I've edited my post to avoid confusion for others trying to sort this out.

Macs have dodged this issue due to Apple's own implementation. That's well established by now. Backwards compatibility for Thunderbolt 4 all the way back to TB1 is a non issue if you're in that world.

I can't find any evidence that states that Thunderbolt 4 is officially backwards compatible beyond Thunderbolt 3. At one point the stance on Intel's own website was that TB4 PCs were not backward compatible to TB2. Now that's gone. Intel has repeatedly revised their Thunderbolt FAQ to suit whatever the current state of affairs is, and currently they only state TB4 backward compatibility to TB3 with no additional detail. You can look at the evolution of that page via archive.org: https://web.archive.org/web/20240701000 ... t/tech/faq.

I had a much longer post written up based on my own testing but the forum pulled up a blank draft so I'll summarize:

I have a TB4 PC which I recently started moving over to for audio production. I've had it for about a year and there is evidence that older versions of TB worked once upon a time by way of the drivers that were installed. I've since updated the BIOS and no combination of TB adapters, TB docks, system updates, and/or driver (re)installs provided a working solution. My 828ES running through a TB2 to TB3 adapter does absolutely nothing when plugged into the PC directly. Using the adapter and running through a CalDigit Element TB4 dock pops up an "unknown device" in device manager, but it's again a dead end at that point. From everything I've read, if you've updated your TB firmware beyond the version that broke backwards compatibility, there's nothing much you can do except hope that the community makes enough noise that it gets fixed in a future update. Additional reading here: https://asusproart.medium.com/thunderbo ... d3141cc03f

[mikehalloran]

DataPro Solutions is among the many companies that disagrees with you.

https://www.datapro.net/techinfo/thunde ... lt%20spec.

This group isn't MOTU. Neither is it Intel, Apple, Microsoft or any PC maker. We are users trying to help other users.

You appear to be looking for someone to blame for PC makers and/or Microsoft being unable/unwilling to get Thunderbolt working as Intel says it can.

For myself, I am not interested in the argument.

[steavis]

Update - ASUS released an update that rolled the firmware for Thunderbolt 4 back to NVM31, restoring backward compatibility with TB1/2 so I can use my MOTU gear again.

The firmware is a binary from Intel, running on Intel silicon, as part of the Intel chipset on my motherboard.

This was 100% an Intel decision. They made the choice due to the security model of TB1/2 to remove compatibility. The spec may say backward compatibility is a thing, but the company that owns the spec and is producing the reference hardware and software for it aren't following it no matter what any other companies may say.

The blame lies squarely with Intel's NVM firmware, no one else.

I'm done buying any MOTU TB gear until they update to TB4+ or at the very least USB3. They only "make" 2 USB3+AVB devices, and the one that I need (8A) has been on backorder for YEARS. As in, I've been trying since June 2021 to get one new. MOTU support doesn't know when/if it will ever be manufactured again when I called and asked. B&H says it's discontinued. It's making PreSonus's AVB gear look really attractive right now.

[HCMarkus]

Yeah, although MOTU has said they are still committed to AVB, it appears that they are going to have to re-engineer their TB interfaces to accommodate some different TB-related components.

That said, unless one requires the greater number of I/O channels that TB supports, it sure looks like USB is the future for most audio interface applications. I love my 828ES (it is TB-connected), but the new USB-only 828 would do the job for me just fine.

[mikehalloran]

Intel's web site has much conflicting information on TB4, much of it way wrong—as anyone who quotes it quickly finds out.

Apple has never supported some of the USB 3 protocols but current Macs support USB4 which includes TB4/3/2/1 (with adapters) and are backwards compatible to USB 1.1. Apple still doesn't support USB 3.2 Gen 2x2 unless a device can be connected via a Thunderbolt 2 adapter to achieve the same speed. Weird but true. Apple supports USB 3.1 then jumps to USB4/TB4/3.

It's a hot mess and all manufacturers have to figure it out. MOTU would be insane to support TB5/4/3 when USB 4.2/4 gives them all the backwards compatibility they need including cross compatibility with TB5/4/3 — and no licensing fees need be paid to Intel.

Buy or don't buy a particular product—whatever works for you is best.