Major studio upgrade question please

[finster1]

Hi all! Making a giant upgrade soon from my 2009 MacPro 12 core and 2408 mkll to an M2 Mac Studio..wondering what others have done in this situation? I know I need a thunderbolt audio interface, suggestions or thoughts are welcome. My biggest concern is some kind of breakout box to house three 1tb SSD's that contain audio projects and samples. It has been so nice to have four drive bays in the MacPro. And possibly another such box for 2 UAD solo pcie cards with a bunch of plugins. Any suggestions are most appreciated! Really interested in how some of you have resolved similar issues in the move to the Mac Studio and thunderbolt world. Thank you in advance!
Fin

[mikehalloran]

Focus on what you are trying to accomplish and not what you had before.

Although you might need a Thunderbolt unit, there are any number of Fast USB 2 interfaces that will run circles around your old 2408.

A housing for 3 1TB external drives? That you do not need. You are going to consolidate everything onto a USB4 external from 4–8TB that will be anywhere from 7-15x faster than what you have now. There are also good reasons for bringing everything onboard if you’re doing a lot of AV or sharing files with others.

A number of us have been there already.

[HCMarkus]

Hi all! Making a giant upgrade soon from my 2009 MacPro 12 core and 2408 mkll to an M2 Mac Studio..wondering what others have done in this situation? I know I need a thunderbolt audio interface, suggestions or thoughts are welcome. My biggest concern is some kind of breakout box to house three 1tb SSD's that contain audio projects and samples. It has been so nice to have four drive bays in the MacPro. And possibly another such box for 2 UAD solo pcie cards with a bunch of plugins. Any suggestions are most appreciated! Really interested in how some of you have resolved similar issues in the move to the Mac Studio and thunderbolt world. Thank you in advance!
Fin

UAD went native, so you will probably be better off just re-buying any plugins they don't give you.

My 828ES works great attached via TB, but it worked just as well when attached via USB. USB allows the computer and Interface to be further apart. The new USB-only 828 looks very solid.

MIke is right re: storage. Dump the 1TB spinners. One of these will allow you to transfer data to new drives:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B075G ... =UTF8&th=1

When I moved from my Mac Pro to my Mac Studio, I set up my drives like this:

Internal 2TB: Two APFS Volumes... 1. Boot Drive with all Apps and 2. DP Working project files

External Thunderbolt: Two VI Samples 2TB NVMe SSDs, each in an OWC Envoy Express enclosure.

External USB3: Two SATA SSDs 1. working file manual backups and 2. photos, each in these enclosures: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08TQ ... UTF8&psc=1

External Spinners: Two 8TB, One 14TB external USB Hard Drive for Time Machine, Long Term Storage, and Archive Storage.

You will most likely need several USB3 hubs to make it all work. Powered hubs are less likely to give boot up power issues when loaded with drives and peripherals.

There are lots of options.

[finster1]

Thank you Mike and HC! Very thoughtful and thorough information. A lot to think about. And new ways to organize, etc. I’ll contact UAD and see what they suggest. I assume I’ll need a new MIDI interface as well. So the journey begins. Thank you again .
All the best
Fin

[HCMarkus]

I’ll need a new MIDI interface as well.

All my gear attaches via USB... just sayin'

[mikehalloran]

Thank you Mike and HC! Very thoughtful and thorough information. A lot to think about. And new ways to organize, etc. I’ll contact UAD and see what they suggest. I assume I’ll need a new MIDI interface as well. So the journey begins. Thank you again .
All the best
Fin

Depending on the MIDI unit you have, you might be fine — we don't know but this the best place to find out.

There are a number of us who will go out of our way to try and get you the best info for your upgrade quest. To help us out, we do need some things from you.

How many inputs do you need? Think of the future, too. Mic? Line?

What MIDI box(es) are you currently using? Do you have a need for SMPTE?

Are you doing audio primarily? AV? both?

Are you sharing files and projects over Cloud services (or plan to)? With the current macOS, this is an important question.

How much internal storage (system drive) do you have now?

How much external storage — anything besides those three 1TB drives? Do you boot into any of those externals?

Do you use an external VI host such as VEP?

Are you using Time Machine?

How many peripherals are currently connected?

How many monitors are you using, what type and how old?

[finster1]

How many inputs do you need? Think of the future, too. Mic? Line?
8 and 8 have been plenty. I have a Presonus Digimax lt optical (Adat)I have some nice outboard mic pres as well

What MIDI box(es) are you currently using? Do you have a need for SMPTE?
MOTU MIDI Express XT. Don’t need smpte

Are you doing audio primarily? AV? both?
Primarily audio

Are you sharing files and projects over Cloud services (or plan to)? With the current macOS, this is an important question.
Not complete projects, mainly mixes and stems

How much internal storage (system drive) do you have now?
1TB

How much external storage — anything besides those three 1TB drives? Do you boot into any of those externals?
Two-1TB ssd's and one 240GB ssd No boot on these

Do you use an external VI host such as VEP?
No

Are you using Time Machine?
Sporadically, for system drive mainly

How many peripherals are currently connected?
RD700 for controller only, Mackie control, both MIDI. KorgpadKontrol, EMU Xboard49, both usb

How many monitors are you using, what type and how old?
One LG QHD 30.5 in display one year old

[mikehalloran]

How many inputs do you need? Think of the future, too. Mic? Line?
8 and 8 have been plenty. I have a Presonus Digimax lt optical (Adat)I have some nice outboard mic pres as well

What MIDI box(es) are you currently using? Do you have a need for SMPTE?
MOTU MIDI Express XT. Don’t need smpte
…

For the moment, you appear to be in pretty good shape. Your MOTU MIDI Express XT will work as long as it is the USB version. Driver installation is tricky but we've sussed that out.

Although your monitor supports HDMI and Display Port, you will use the Studio's HDMI port. If you add more monitors, connect those via HDMI to USB-C cables. There's an issue with Display Port connections that I don't believe has been fixed (I had to demonstrate it to Cupertino).

Your monitor doesn't have a camera, microphone or speakers but I'll assume that you have that covered for now. If not, easy to address.

Besides the HDMI port, the M2 Ultra has 6 TB4/USB4 ports plus 2 more USB-A ports that USB 3.1 gen2 (old name USB 3.0). All are backward compatible to USB 1.1. Not all USB-C to USB-A adapters support 1.1 so plan on plugging your MIDI box into one of the USB-A ports. Otherwise, make sure that your other cables support USB 2 (420 kB/s) and you'll be fine. If in doubt, USB Printer Cables only support USB 2/1.1 and come in all configurations—normally, USB-B to USB-C for most peripherals. If you still need a hub, plenty of solutions available depending on your needs.

Apple changed the rules for Cloud connections and storage with macOS Monterey and later. Cloud files are accessed through the CloudStorage folder (users/(user name/Library/CloudStorage) including Dropbox, GoogleDrive etc. There is no more sync'ing files on your Mac to the cloud; it now works in reverse. If you have enough storage space on your System drive, you may share copies of these files to your Mac—not enough storage means the files stay in the cloud and no copies are stored locally. The advantages are a) that you can work on the copies and they update the cloud files as your internet speed allows b) these local copies will back up to Time Machine (and Backblaze if you use it). The downside is that you cannot share these to external drives. Depending on how much data is involved, this may affect how much onboard storage you need.

Plan on using Time Machine. Get a mechanical hard drive more than twice as big as all your data needs and have it run automatically. You can use a USB3 dock or a box connected via ethernet to your router/wi-fi modem as I do.

Having 8TB onboard storage adds $2,200 to the price of an m2 Ultra — necessary if sharing huge cloud files as I do but not everyone has those needs. A 4 Lane USB 4 housing with a NVMe 3 x4 blade is less than half the speed of internal storage but still blazing fast. The fastest external storage you can have is a single blade in a e Lane housing: 2800MB/s for data only with another 8000MB/s for video and a combined theoretical maximum of 3200MB/s. Newer blades can have much higher numbers for internal mounting in PCs but they cannot go faster over a USB4/TB4/3 cable. Multiple drive housings are slower.

TB4/3 is based on USB 4 but Thunderbolt is certified and licensed by Intel while USB4 is not. Some of us have already tested USB4 drives and cables finding identical performance and lower cost.

This $99 USB 4 housing is as fast as the protocol allows and runs nice and cool with an 8TB blade connected to my system. Unlike TB4/3, this actually connects to my 2012 MacBook Pro over USB 2 (!)
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0BBZ ... UTF8&psc=1

OWC's version has a sexier heat sink and can be bought loaded or empty. Unlike the other solutions, it isn't shipping yet but can be pre-ordered.
https://eshop.macsales.com/shop/owc-express-1m2

Some blades, especially those advertised for gaming come with heat sinks. The housings I linked have heat sinks built in with no room for others. Again, the maximum numbers in an external housing are absolute and higher advertised speeds cannot change this.

This is a good price on a 4TB blade from a well known company.
https://www.amazon.com/Crucial-PCIe-NAN ... ref=sr_1_9

8TB blades range from around $839 to $1,200.
https://www.amazon.com/Oyen-Digital-Sol ... ef=sr_1_14

Nothing wrong with starting at 4TB and upgrading later.

Interface — I see no need for a Thunderbolt interface here unless your future needs are much greater than the present. the RTL (round trip latency) between the fastest TB interface and Fast USB 2 is the same as moving your ears closer to or further away from your monitor speakers about 18".

It looks to me that the MOTU 8pre USB will do everything you need including connect to your ADAT expander (and has a DIN 5 MIDI port). USB only.
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail ... -interface

If you need the additional horsepower and connectivity, the 8pre-es is a great choice. USB2 and TB1 (use the Apple adapter to connect to TB3/4).
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail ... tu-8pre-es

Then there's the 8M
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail ... e-with-avb

Due to component shortages, the above are backordered just about everywhere at the moment. If you do not need 8 mic inputs, there are a lot more choices out there. One thing about MOTU is that if you buy a used interface, Support can un-register it from any former owner which lets you get installation help etc. as long as it's a supported model.

Don't know if you are using Cue Mix or not. Some of the newer interfaces don't have it—with the low RTL nowadays, many don't feel the need. The 8pre series does, however.

[HCMarkus]

I'd suggest the new USB-only 828 was an interface candidate in light of the fact you have...

a Presonus Digimax lt optical (Adat)I have some nice outboard mic pres as well.

The 828 Line Ins would love your outboard mic pres.

I wouldn't hold your breath for any AVB TB MOTU interface at this point; they have been unobtanium for a very long while.

[finster1]

Thank you once again for the wealth of information. Definitely helping me think through my options. Even though I don’t want to spend this much money on an interface, I’m considering UAD Apollo 8x for a few reasons. Quality of the converters, and ability to keep all of my current UAD plugins that I use daily. Unfortunately many haven’t gone Native, and something’s not right in my mind about re-purchasing plug-ins I paid for already. Plus the idea of mics and instruments going through these on the front end while tracking is very inviting. I do currently route through effects on occasion, using amplitude for guitar,etc and just put up with the slight latency. But part of me doesn’t want to give UAD more money just to use what I already have..

[mikehalloran]

The new 828 is available now and has the optical in. There may be better prices than Sweetwater but they do have it in stock.
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail ... -interface


Only downsides are a) It has only two mic inputs and b) the MIDI port doesn't support SMTPE.

For (a) the 8 Line Inputs and 2 pairs of optical ports can handle your outboard gear—if that gives you enough Inputs for tracking, that's great. If not, there are other recommendations that can be made. If you do not use Cue Mix, that opens up even more possibilities.

We already know that (b) isn't an issue and that your current MIDI box (that does support SMTPE should you ever need it) will work anyway. Setting up MOTU Audio and MIDI drivers is tricky nowadays but some of us have cracked that nut with MOTU's help.

You mentioned tracking latency through effects. If it was slight on your current box, you will be pleasantly surprised with the Studio.

[pencilina]

You might want to consider an RME. They make some wonderful sounding interfaces, provide great support as well as very stable drivers and software. I picked up a used FF802 (it has usb) recently and couldn't be happier with it and my 15+ year old FF800 is still working perfectly. Also, it's worth noting that MOTU no longer repairs out of warranty products if you have a HW issue. Although I've had many good MOTU boxes in the past, I had a MOTU UL AVB recently and my experience with it was not too good (nasty clipping on the pres, horrible browser based SW that would loose communication, no MIDI control and difficult to update). Hopefully they worked some of that out with the new units but It's unlikely that I'd buy another motu interface in the future. Good luck and enjoy your new gear!

[fokof]

Hey Guys

I'm in that situation :
2011 Mac Pro , PCIe based kit around HD192 and 2408mkIII
2 UAD cards
Starting to feel the age , stuck in 10.14....

I also have a 1248 and an UltaliteAVB in my bass kit , so I would use these as my "Home base"

Have you guys kept the older kit "just in case" ?
Since it's worth nothing now , can't even exchange my HD192 for a cappuccino

Is the 2480mkIII usable Stand alone ?
You guys use it for what in real world?

I've invested too much in UAD plugins (non native) to ditch that concept , anyone know of a double PCIe expander ?
I've read in UA forums that this one works with UAD cards , but it's a single , I have two cards....
https://eshop.macsales.com/shop/owc-mer ... nderbolt-3

Wondering if I keep the Mac Pro only as a server for home theatre ........ it eats up lots of electricity !!!

Ideas / opinions ?

Thanx

[HCMarkus]

Main Idea: You will be very happy with Apple Silicon. It took me two days, with a clean install of all Apps and Plugins (but sneaker-netting several terabytes of VI Data), to make the move (in the midst of composing a film score... so glad I did!)

I have booted my 12 Core Cheesegrater exactly twice since moving to my M1 Mac Studio. This fact should tell you how I feel about the need to keep the old gear. My old Mac stands tall in my machine closet, impressive in stature, but completely overwhelmed in performance by the unassuming Mac Studio sitting quietly (and cooly) on the shelf below.

Before investing in stuff to support UAD, look at the UA website and the prices for their native plugins. Dramatic drops and lots of sales! You might spend less than you would on a PCI Expansion Chassis. And the new Macs are so powerful, I sincerely doubt you'll be lamenting the loss of UAD processing horsepower.

The 2408 will work if you need some ADAT expansion. I don't recall if you can do both A/D and D/A simultaneously when operating stand-alone.

[fokof]

Thanx for the tips
I might keep the Mac Pro , until I have space to do so
The difference between what we Paid vs what we can have for it now is so heartbreaking


2408 could still be useful if i could "Merge" the 3 ADAT banks to one Bank out
I'll have to experiment if I could do that in Stand Alone mode.....

UAD : lots of plugin that I use a LOT are not native , so I think I'll jump with the Sonnet box

Wich Mac Studio did you get ?
Regrets or " I wish I would have bought that one instead " ?