DP vs. Logic test, why is this??

daveyboy · Post by **daveyboy** » Sat Feb 11, 2006 10:06 pm

I spent tonight trying to hear if I could tell which app sounded "best". I started a project in DP yesterday and then saved it as an OMF and opened it up in Logic. I set all my faders, pans and 3rd party plugins exactly the same, keeping things simple and often just turning all plugs off. Making several recordings in real time between the 2 apps I wanted to make a "blind" listening test. They basically sounded the same except the Logic one had more bass. I soloed the bass between the 2 and Logic was pumping a tad louder on my digital mixer's meter. I then recorded both into peak and sure enough the logic bass was up by a few db. I then just set each fader to unity and did it again. The DP bass peaked at -10.32 and the Logic bass peaked at -7.82. This was done within Peak. This is the Exact same bass, no plugins and panned in the center. For you nerdly types I posted a small AIF at http://dbwproductions.com/test/DP_Logic_Bass_Test.aif . The first half is the DP version, just not as loud.

I did the same kind of tests for the acoustic and electric guitars. Soloing each and recording both DP and Logic. The volumes where much closer (less then a db difference but not exact. Sometimes DP was the louder one. I then analyzed both using Waves PAZ. I found the the doubled electric guitar was wider in Logic by looking at PAZ. You can see the pic at: http://dbwproductions.com/test/pan.jpg. The top graph shows the frequency response. DP is pink and Logic is orange. They pretty much line up. The bottom is the stereo image. Here is where you see the bigger differnece. The stuff between "left and right" is what I'm looking at. Once again DP is pink and Logic orange. Do they subscribe to different panning laws?

Sorry to geek out so much on something not as important as writing a good song. Just found it interesting.

Matcher · Post by **Matcher** » Sun Feb 12, 2006 1:21 pm

That's interesting. I bet the guys at sound on sound's forum would have professional comments on that.

I'd like to see this subject there for sure!

daveyboy · Post by **daveyboy** » Sun Feb 12, 2006 2:34 pm

Did some more research and it looks like it is a panning law issue. In logic you can set it so that the center channel is attenuated by -3 db or not (I'm simplifying). I must not have that turned on so that the center (thus the bass guitar) is louder in Logic. Just looked at a Logic forum and found that answer.

So, does anyone know if DP has any panning law preferences that can be changed like other apps? Found that Logic, Sonar and Cubase have different settings in regards to this. Explains why projects can sound different in different apps if these settings don't match. Once again, the geek in me is possessing me this weekend (sorry non-geeks).

chrispick · Post by **chrispick** » Sun Feb 12, 2006 3:43 pm

daveyboy wrote:Did some more research and it looks like it is a panning law issue. In logic you can set it so that the center channel is attenuated by -3 db or not (I'm simplifying). I must not have that turned on so that the center (thus the bass guitar) is louder in Logic. Just looked at a Logic forum and found that answer.

So, does anyone know if DP has any panning law preferences that can be changed like other apps? Found that Logic, Sonar and Cubase have different settings in regards to this. Explains why projects can sound different in different apps if these settings don't match. Once again, the geek in me is possessing me this weekend (sorry non-geeks).

To my knowledge, DP's pan laws are fixed. I use the Trim plug-in to get around this from time to time. It's great for fine-placing sound in stereo space with DP while controlling dB.

And I think you're right. Pan law often goes ignored in these DAW shootouts. Someone will move a mix from one DAW to another, then say the other sounds "more spacious" when often what's really happening is different pan attentuation.

moonwalker · Post by **moonwalker** » Sun Feb 12, 2006 5:23 pm

Staying on the same topic of panning differences between Daw's, my suspicions of Dp's cloudiness in placing tracks in the stereo spectrum, is confirmed by comparing Dp to Live 5. Panning in Live 5 just seems to maintain tighter and more defined imaging and from left to right and does'nt decrease or increase in volume. Iv'e been using Dp professionally now for 5 years and its a great program but the sound quality and imaging i get out of Live 5 i think is much better . More like the imaging i used to get from anolog mixers. If you have Live to compare to Dp, try panning tests between the two from left to right and i bet you'll find that you can visually see more clearly exactly where things are being placed in Live with more room for other instruments in the panning spectrum. If Live ever incorperates different takes within each track then i might have to switch over but for now, Dp is more efficiant when your working quickly tracking with clients.

thereaktor · Post by **thereaktor** » Mon Feb 13, 2006 5:14 am

Hi Dave

I found your comparison interresting. But do you have any conclusion? Which app do you prefer ? Did you try using one of these external analog summing boxes ? I heard them and they do improve the sound quality when it comes to mixing.

rknaub · Post by **rknaub** » Mon Feb 13, 2006 6:47 am

Hi Guys, DP's panning Law is the same as Pro Tools, which is -3 I belive.

HTH

Randy

daveyboy · Post by **daveyboy** » Mon Feb 13, 2006 8:05 am

Hope I didn't confuse too many people by my own confusion. After learning more about pan law (via searching this forum and others) I did find that DP uses the -3 pan law. I even put the song into pro tools to see if I could hear a difference. There wasn't one between PT and DP. Logic sounded identical too after I changed it's prefs to -3 as well. I could match DP to Logic's "punchier" sound (when Logic was switched to -3 compensated) by pushing up the hard right, hard left guitars up by 3 db (that's what the -3 compensated does in Logic). Protools LE's pan law is fixed at -3 from what I could tell. My guess is that maybe Live is -3 compensated?? Don't know. Anyway, I'm about 99% sure that they all sound the same (the 3 I mentioned) when they're setup the same.

Not sure how you guys are using the trim to widen things yet. Will have to read more about it and check it out.

artfarm1 · Post by **artfarm1** » Tue Feb 14, 2006 6:44 am

Hi....I did a lot of 'A-Bing' back and forthe between Logic 5 and DP back when I was deciding to go back to DP after two years on Logic.

For what it's worth, my opinion.....

When I had everything set the same from a 2 track .aif file, including various imported files from previous projects recorded both in and out of Logic 5, from importing various commercial CD files recordings, importing audio files done in DP and played back in Logic, etc. etc......I kept coming back to DP as my choice of more 'natural' sound!

Logic sounded too 'compressed', too 'bassy' and midrangey, not 'airy' enough my liking.

Anyways, I had to go with my ears and gut feeling, and I'll gladly live with DP anyday over Logic.