Need some advice RE: DP + Apogee (or sell me on MOTU hdwr)

[muxlow]

Hi, all. Long time listener, first time caller...

After days of UTFSE, I'm still a bit hazy on what would best suit my needs, so I figured I'd put up a post and see if anyone here had some ideas.

WHAT I DO:

••• Record myself playing electric guitars and bass through POD XT Pros via digital outs. This is about 90% of my recording...

••• Record various bits of percussion, vocals, acoustic guitar, etc. with 1 or 2 mic setups. No drum kits, string quartets or live bands...

••• Mix in the box w/ plugs (no budget for fancy outboard gear)...




WHAT I HAVE:

••• A first-generation Digi001 (it's so old that when I hit record it asks me to turn it up) and PT LE 6.4

••• A PROFOUND distaste for DigiDesign

••• Some cheap mics, pres, etc.

••• Alesis M1 MK2 monitors.

••• Everything going in and out of the Digi001

••• A real desire to upgrade the core of my studio (A/D, D/A and DAW) to something stable, smooth and 192khz

••• About $5000 over the course of this year (mics and pres in 2007)

••• Two albums to be released in 2006, and several more happening over the next few years. It's a project studio for myself, but the stuff will be released so I'd like to have a decent set up for recording...



WHAT I THOUGHT I WANTED:

DP 4.6 + an Apogee Rosetta 800 + mic pre (haven't decided yet)




WHAT I REALIZED TODAY:

90% of what I record is digital, so why would I spend $3000 on an 8-channel Apogee AD/DA converter just pass an untouched digital signal from my PODs to DP? Why not spend less on a 2-channel AD/DA to cover my occasional 1 or 2-mic recording sessions and my monitors...



BUT THEN I STARTED SHOPPING:
...and found that an Apogee MiniME (mic pre + A/D) and an Apogee MiniDAC (D/A for my monitors) cost almost as much as the Rosetta 800, but I'd be 6 inputs and 6 outputs short, and I don't think there's a clock.



SO NOW:
I'm totally confused.



QUESTIONS:

••• Am I barking up the wrong the tree with Apogee? My habit is to get great stuff that does exactly what I need and doesn't hassle me. If it costs a little more, so be it. But if Apogee is the converter equivalent of ArtBoxes ($5 fishing tackle boxes sold to art students for $30), then I'm all ears for other options.

••• Should I just get the Rosetta 800 as a "bargain" even if I'll only really work it a little bit (monitors + 1 channel of A/D when I mic something)?

••• If I do go with just a 2-channel A/D for my mic pre and a 2-channel D/A for my monitors, what would I use to get digital signals in to DP?




Thanks for any answers/advice/knocks about the head you have to offer

[FM]

yeah...it's a bit of a conundrum.
here's my humble opinion.

first off, i don't think you're barking up the wrong tree with apogee.

second, by all means upgrade your AD/DA chain.
when i first started putting my rig together i go a motu 2408 mk3 (PCI), i used the PCI clock and it wasn't until i got my rosetta AD that i saw a huge improvement in fidelity.
not only because of tracking with the rosetta but also just clocking from it.

if you are 100% sure that you will never go OTB for anything i'd say get a two channel apogee piece, use it for tracking and clocking and you're done. and even if you go OTB someday the improved clocking will surely help.
that is pretty much my case, i mix in DP but i sum to an API mixer using the analog outs of my 2408 and clocking off of the rosetta.

one thing you might look at is if you could use something like a rosetta 800 for tracking and for monitoring (don't know if that's possible), that way you might bypass having to get a separate DA/monitor piece altogether.
i use a mini-dac for monitoring but i also use it for live situations, my mixes improved the moment i started using it.

did i just confuse you more?

FM

FM is the cat that ate the malt that lay in the house that Jack built.

[burp182]

How about the Rosetta 200? 2 ch. of the same I/O and clock for less dough. And it'll take the X-Card Firewire to be your direct link to the computer. Worth a look.

[muxlow]

How about the Rosetta 200? 2 ch. of the same I/O and clock for less dough. And it'll take the X-Card Firewire to be your direct link to the computer. Worth a look.

If I were to go that route, what I plug my AES/EBU digital signals into? I haven't seen an all-digital I/O box yet.

[mlehmann]

Did you check the new Apogee Ensemble?

[muxlow]

yeah...it's a bit of a conundrum.
here's my humble opinion.

first off, i don't think you're barking up the wrong tree with apogee.

second, by all means upgrade your AD/DA chain.
when i first started putting my rig together i go a motu 2408 mk3 (PCI), i used the PCI clock and it wasn't until i got my rosetta AD that i saw a huge improvement in fidelity.
not only because of tracking with the rosetta but also just clocking from it.

if you are 100% sure that you will never go OTB for anything i'd say get a two channel apogee piece, use it for tracking and clocking and you're done. and even if you go OTB someday the improved clocking will surely help.
that is pretty much my case, i mix in DP but i sum to an API mixer using the analog outs of my 2408 and clocking off of the rosetta.

one thing you might look at is if you could use something like a rosetta 800 for tracking and for monitoring (don't know if that's possible), that way you might bypass having to get a separate DA/monitor piece altogether.
i use a mini-dac for monitoring but i also use it for live situations, my mixes improved the moment i started using it.

did i just confuse you more?

FM

Not at all. the more I look, the more the Rosetta 800 seems like a bargain:

Rosetta 800 for $2700 (clock + 8 channels in + 8 channels out)

VS:

Rosetta 200 for $1750 (clock 2 channels in) + Mini DAC for $900 (2 channels out) = $2650



So for an extra $50, I get 6 more channels of I/O...unless I'm missing something.

[muxlow]

Did you check the new Apogee Ensemble?

Hey, that might be a good middle ground if I can't swing a Rosetta.

Thanks!

[wynsmth]

The Rosetta 200 is A/D AND D/A. You do not need the Mini DAC.

[chrispick]

Rosetta 200 for $1750 (clock 2 channels in) + Mini DAC for $900 (2 channels out) = $2650

Doesn't the Rosetta 200 give you ins and outs? Why do you you thinking you need the additional Mini DAC?

[muxlow]

Rosetta 200 for $1750 (clock 2 channels in) + Mini DAC for $900 (2 channels out) = $2650

Doesn't the Rosetta 200 give you ins and outs? Why do you you thinking you need the additional Mini DAC?

You're right! I saw this description on Sweetwater:

"Apogee Rosetta 200 2-channel 192kHz 24-bit A/D Converter"


...and assumed it was A/D only. Should have read the specs. Thanks!

[chrispick]

Rosetta 200 for $1750 (clock 2 channels in) + Mini DAC for $900 (2 channels out) = $2650

Doesn't the Rosetta 200 give you ins and outs? Why do you you thinking you need the additional Mini DAC?

You're right! I saw this description on Sweetwater:

"Apogee Rosetta 200 2-channel 192kHz 24-bit A/D Converter"


...and assumed it was A/D only. Should have read the specs. Thanks!

Yeah, I think the 200 best suits your needs today. Given your modest project studio needs, two channels ought to be enough. You're not planning on recording multiple live instruments simultaneuosly, right?

And sorry about the rampant typos in my last post. Geez. Caffeine, man...

[magicd]

MOTU Traveler.
$849.00 US retail

Up to 192khz sample rate.
Four mic pres
Eight total analog inputs
Lightpipe
S/PDIF
AES/EBU (all simultaneous)
Word in and out
Direct monitoring and stand-alone mixer mode
MIDI I/O

Magic Dave (yes I work for MOTU but you did ask...)

[FM]

So for an extra $50, I get 6 more channels of I/O...unless I'm missing something.

i don't think you are.
i've been eyeballing that rosetta 800 for some time now, if my mixes improved so much just by clocking off of an old rosetta AD i can only imagine what would happen if used a rosetta 800 for summing as well.

that said, i don't mind the way my music is sounding these days.
i have a lot of songs i need to finish tracking and i might just invest in a really nice pre instead of another AD/DA piece.

long live rosettas!

by all means, ask a lot f questions.
i have, often, called the folks at Apogee and they have always been very helpfull.

cheers!

FM

FM could not care any less about where Thumbkin is.

[muxlow]

MOTU Traveler.
$849.00 US retail

Up to 192khz sample rate.
Four mic pres
Eight total analog inputs
Lightpipe
S/PDIF
AES/EBU (all simultaneous)
Word in and out
Direct monitoring and stand-alone mixer mode
MIDI I/O

Magic Dave (yes I work for MOTU but you did ask...)

I certainly did, and would still consider an all MOTU rig. My only reason for going with the Apogees is that they seem to one of the industry leaders in converters.

Can you say without lying that MOTU converters are on par wtih Apogees? If not in the Traveler, how about the higher end stuff?

And I don't mean "exactly to spec", just somewhere in the ballpark. I don't need to pay 50% more for a 3% increase in sound that you can only hear if you A/B two mixes on a $10,000 monitoring system. I just want quality stuff to the average ear that won't •••• out on me in a year *cough*protools*cough*digi001*cough*

[grimepoch]

I'd say find yourself a place where you can try say the traveller, or any of the other Motu products and the Apogee. I've had the opportunity to listen to some Apogee products, Digi products and Motu. For the value, I went with Motu because the difference for what I was doing wasn't that much. Now, down the road, maybe that will change, but I am VERY happy with my 896s (and I have two of them).