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This forum is for seeking solutions to technical problems involving Digital Performer and/or plug-ins on MacOS, as well as feature requests, criticisms, comparison to other DAWs.
James Steele wrote: ↑Fri Feb 04, 2022 12:57 pm
This is interesting. I finally got around to testing this and had similar delay on the VI track. I turned off "Sync Recorded MIDI to Patch Thru" and on my system it seemed to be much better. I was only recording quarter notes to the VI track at 120bpm.
I tried that too, and the timing error got a bit worse in my case.
This was a bit of an eye opener. I thought my playing was a little behind the beat which is fine with me. But when I correct the timing go recorded MIDI in DP the same amount as the average error, it turns out I play ahead of the beat on a keyboard (and cancel out some of the the delay). This is really bad for moral because I can't stand piano players who are ahead of the beat.
Chiming in to hopefully save others continued frustration and time. Accurate MIDI record timing has been broken since DP 9.1. MOTU tech confirmed back then and more recently mentioned there would be a fix in 11.03. I'm still using 9.52 and haven't got around to confirming myself but will soon. The bug was simply, changing the audio buffer would offset recorded note on events, late or early. And this wasn't a millisecond or two, you'd get upwards of a 40ms swing going from a buffer of 32 to 2048. The former causing notes to be ~20ms late and the latter causing the note to actually be placed ~20ms EARLIER than when the event occurred. You can see a prior discussion here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=65447&start=15#top
Hopefully that resolves some head scratching. I was amazed more people didn't mention observing this after 9.1.
mwilloam wrote: ↑Sun Feb 06, 2022 10:25 am
Chiming in to hopefully save others continued frustration and time. Accurate MIDI record timing has been broken since DP 9.1. MOTU tech confirmed back then and more recently mentioned there would be a fix in 11.03. I'm still using 9.52 and haven't got around to confirming myself but will soon. The bug was simply, changing the audio buffer would offset recorded note on events, late or early. And this wasn't a millisecond or two, you'd get upwards of a 40ms swing going from a buffer of 32 to 2048. The former causing notes to be ~20ms late and the latter causing the note to actually be placed ~20ms EARLIER than when the event occurred. You can see a prior discussion here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=65447&start=15#top
Hopefully that resolves some head scratching. I was amazed more people didn't mention observing this after 9.1.
Thanks for that, but the problem is slightly different with DP 11. For one thing, it is reversed; MIDI prints later with bigger buffer settings, not earlier. Also it is more extreme (delays of 40-60 ms). Also when you remove any VIs the problem goes away. And the audio "Fine Tune" settings, which should address this problem, don't work. Finally, and most importantly, no one has ever explained WHY we are having this problem, from DP 9 until now.
So I'm wondering... is this a problem that only seems to manifest in systems with a "mixed environment?" That is, when a project contains a combination of traditional external synths/modules and VIs running on the computer? I gather that people who use only VIs are not seeing this behavior and may be why it hasn't been noticed by so many?
This is SO frustrating-- I just can't seem to get an answer from the DP software engineering team on whether or not they are aware of this bug and what they intend to do, if anything. AAARGGHHH!!!
I've been following this without chiming in because I don't have anything constructive to offer, but I do have a question: Isn't this what the "Nudge" command is for?
cuttime wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 10:06 am
I've been following this without chiming in because I don't have anything constructive to offer, but I do have a question: Isn't this what the "Nudge" command is for?
No, that's not what it's for. It will do that, but it's hard to believe the developers noticed a serious error and, rather than fix it, developed the nudge feature so we could fix it ourselves.
Just about the time this thread started I happened to have started a project with a lot of MIDI tracks and thousands of notes. Almost all of my stuff was audio before that, and I hadn't really noticed this bug. It gets really old, recording a phrase while DP is looping, and then not being to hear what was recorded on the next pass, and having to wait until the position of the notes is corrected.
cuttime wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 10:06 am
I've been following this without chiming in because I don't have anything constructive to offer, but I do have a question: Isn't this what the "Nudge" command is for?
No, that's not what it's for. It will do that, but it's hard to believe the developers noticed a serious error and, rather than fix it, developed the nudge feature so we could fix it ourselves.
Of course not, but wasn't Nudge designed for the ever changing MIDI latency specs involving hardware and software instruments? It seems like something has been lost in the translation. The “Fine-tuning Audio I/O Timing” has not been an issue here.
cuttime wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 6:00 pmwasn't Nudge designed for the ever changing MIDI latency specs involving hardware and software instruments? It seems like something has been lost in the translation. The “Fine-tuning Audio I/O Timing” has not been an issue here.
Whatever the original reason for nudge, its a convenient tool for small timing adjustments regardless of the reason something is not exactly where you want it.
What do you think was lost in translation? A consistent 50ms error in timing seems like a significant bug to me. Or is that what not you mean?
I suppose you can use the fine tuning as a workaround too, but for better or worse, the visual display of MIDI and Audio on a time line is a real thing people use -- it's not all in the ears any more.
Does "Fine-tuning Audio I/O Timing" deal with this? Does it put MIDI In the correct location on the time line? Or just play it at the right time? Always better to see it in the right place and hear it in the right place too.
OK, to repeat, "Fine-tuning Audio I/O Timing" does NOT work on these older machines, AND I finally got a partial response from the MoTU engineers.
Basically the older processors, including the Intel Xeon "Westmere" chips I have in my 2012 Mac Pro, choke under DP 11 regarding MIDI timing and VIs. There is no workaround. I'm asking them if there's a fix planned, but I doubt it. There is NO timing problem with the new Intel processors, the M1, or the AMD Ryzen CPUs in modern PCs.
As we have all discussed, a 50ms delay in MIDI recording makes DP 11 unusable for professional work. I am waiting to hear what my options are, and then getting a new computer. Unfortunately there is no M1 Mac Mini Pro (with more ports and RAM) yet, that would be ideal. Suggestions welcome.
I don’t think there is anything newer than the Westmere Intel Xeon. After that it’s the Westmere Core i5, Core i7, etc., though I may be wrong about that.
smashprod wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 7:06 am
I don’t think there is anything newer than the Westmere Intel Xeon. After that it’s the Westmere Core i5, Core i7, etc., though I may be wrong about that.
Ugh... well that sucks. I don't really want to go back to DP 10.13 because I have a Softube Console 1 and it really needs to use the VST3 format plug to access all the features. DP 10.13 does not support VST3, so I'd have to accept a lot of limitations with Console 1. Combine this with the Movie window issues and it's starting to look like DP 11.x is not a good fit for the Cheesegraters. It's a shame. These machines sure proved their usefulness over the years. I may just have to nudge and bear with it until I the MacMini Pro drops and I can afford to update all the peripherals on top of it.
