State of the Unicorn...

[gblock]

How... disappointing. I'd expected a lot better than this.

1) Get it home and install. Crashes during validation.
2) Upgrade - still crashes during validation. Dig through tech support to find out that this is "normal" behaviour - but they certainly didn't take the time to either add a note in the actual update or put a note on the downloads page to tell me it was expected behaviour.
3) Load the bosendorfer to find that there's no UI feedback when it's busy loading, and sit around wondering if I've just crashed it.
4) Relieved it comes back, and just out of curiosity, tick the box for streamed playback; insta-crash.
5) Frustrated, on next load, go in to UVX importer to import EXS library - and can't figure out a way of sensibly batch importing my EXS library.
6) End up selecting them manually - and crash it three times in a row before I realise that one of Apple's loop-library-installed patches is crashing it every time.

This is *not* a good first 24 hours. What's the point of "amazing sound quality", or whatever gibberish it is they're writing on the packing, when your first 24 hours of time with the product is spent wishing it had gone through some QA????

Poor show. And this since 26 September, 2005 - so these bugs have been more or less unaddressed since then. And 7.1.1? 4 October. So it's taken what, three months to get a patch together for, at minimum, the validation problem, so they're not presenting *new customers* with a glaring problem?

And for what? So they can demo 2.0 at NAMM? Or is there some other excuse?

I'm sitting here wondering whether I've just bought a product whose only use to me will be as a crossgrade to someoene else's sampler. Deciding to not keep the EXS around left me feeling like I was leaving my wife; now I felt like I've left my wife for a •••••, and ended up with an STD.

What, exactly, is going on, if anything? Is there any evidence of an acknowledgement of what must be some pretty obvous problems?

[James Steele]

What, exactly, is going on, if anything? Is there any evidence of an acknowledgement of what must be some pretty obvous problems?

How about giving some details of the machine you're running and the version of system software? What version of MachFive do you currently have installed? All this helps for people here to actually give you help to have things work correctly.

[chrispick]

FWIW, I've never had any problems with Mach Five. Loaded and works on mysystem. Are you looking for help or are you just venting anger? If it's help, then help us help you. Give us your OS and machine stats for starters.

[gblock]

DP2.5GHz, 2G ram, 120G disk, running (now) 1.2.3 of Mach Five. Logic 7.1.1.

But you're missing the point.

- The box ships with an invalidatable 1.2 version of the plugin
- The download of 1.2.3 doesn't validate *either*, and you have to go hunting to find out why.
- I've got reproducible crashes on import of some EXS filters
- and I've got at least one situation where enabling streaming. As the only instrument loaded - literally, no other tracks. Tapping on keys, not playing a track back through it. Not even *playing* the keyboard, in fact - just hit the streaming button.

Don't get me wrong - it works. But in 24 hours, that's what I went through. Is that considered a *good* experience? I didn't come here looking for help to sort out these problems - I'm more than capable of doing so. I'm not stupid. Even streaming has worked most of the time since.

But here's the gist: When a version that shipped in late September stopped working, according to the note that says that 7.1.1's validation broke it, in early October, I'd expect two things: 1) a note in the version I'm downloading stating that it's an expected problem, or at least 2) to not bury the problem somewhere in your website. Not when it happens to *every customer using Logic*.

And Apple's JamPack instruments breaking import? Sure, I bought them for a laugh - but I wouldn't expect them to crash the importer.

As for streaming... Well, I've got the ram, so who cares. For now. But it's not the point - Experiment by hitting a button, and get a crash as a response; what kind of instrument do you play and feel experimental on, and would you still feel that way if it's response was a crash?

And the worst part? It's all here, in these forums. Every problem I've run into in the first 24 hours is here, within the first two pages of forums - which would have been more than enough to prevent me from buying in this instance.

I expect better than this. If it works for you, you're either not running this under Logic 7.1.1 - I don't expect commercial products which I paid for and expect support on to exhibit visible known bugs that make them, literally, not even list themselves in the menus properly.

It looks shonky. It looks poorly supported. And it looks pretty poor on MOTU for not being more responsive. And I expect more than that from MOTU - this isn't some random third-party website plugin that I bought using my PayPal account for a tenner, nor a fly-by-night publisher who has three guys working in a basement flat. It's Mark of the Unicorn, not Signpost of the Roach Motel. I don't expect to *see* bugs like this.

Not, literally, on opening the packaging and performing the *install*. 24 hours is generous - this was all within the first three hours; the post happened after 24.

So, what gives here? What am I meant to think? Is AudioUnits just an afterthought? Do the other versions behave more predictably? Is it worth me going through all of my EXS presets to figure out which ones I can import and which ones will just plain crash, or do I now leave the EXS for what it's good at, and not bother importing them at all, knowing that the more I have to try and import, the more opportunity I'm giving it to crash... and how much button pushing am I going to have to do on this thing before I'm comfortable using it when it *matters*?

These are questions I don't expect to be asking within 24 hours of purchasing a product. And now? Now they're questions I wish I had asked here 24 hours before I had.

You can call that unfair if you like. Personally, I call it realistic.

[chrispick]

I don't think I was missing the point. Looks like you did post here just to bitch.

What are we supposed to do about your M5 problems? Commiserate with you? What use is that? You say you don't need any help.

Direct your complaints to MOTU specifically. They're the only ones who can do anything about it.

[russhughes]

I don't think I was missing the point. Looks like you did post here just to bitch.

What are we supposed to do about your M5 problems? Commiserate with you? What use is that? You say you don't need any help.

Direct your complaints to MOTU specifically. They're the only ones who can do anything about it.

Chris is right.

I too have had no problems with MachFive either in ProTools or Logic. The need to vent your anger is understood, but the guys here want to try and help as much as we can.

You are expecting quite a lot to get a complex product out the box and have it all figured out in a day. Machfive does have it's issues, but then I'm yet to use a piece of software that doesn't need fixes and learning.

Stick with it and you'll find it is an outstanding piece of software. I've imported everything into it Emu/Akai/ESX24/Giga/Duty free drink and never had a problem. Sometimes the velocity triggers on multi samples don't work but I can soon get them fixed in 10 minutes.

The guys on here are a great bunch and we love to help, so tell us specifics as James suggested and we will endevour to give as much help as we can.

[gblock]

I don't think I was missing the point. Looks like you did post here just to bitch.

I came here, before, to find out what I might expect from the product. I came here after to (amongst other things, but in this specific post) voice my disappointment. What, you want me to wear fluffy ears and smile all the time, tell you the world is a wonderful place? I'm a user now - and for better or worse, a voice in the community. Not all voices will sing with you in harmony in every moment of the day. Some of us might even start out off tune.

I voiced, quite frankly, to find out if anyone else felt the same. I voiced because nothing I read here prepared me for that first day. I bought a product; it gave me a bad experience on its first day of use. What, my opinion's invalid? Suddenly it's not worth saying out loud, because it wasn't a GOOD experience? If nobody ever says anything *bad*, then how's anyone supposed to know to expect a problem? Should I have known to expect what I did get?

I didn't expect a problem. Consider this the natural way of forums "self correcting" - someone's bound to post their negative experiences with their positive ones.

Russ's is the response I was hoping to read, but I thank you for yours nonetheless.

As it is, I'm having a much better time of things tonight; the multi-instrument mapping is all set up, and I *think* I've got the other audio channels mapped to auxes in the core audio config. It didn't crash once tonight - on the other hand, I'm steering clear of the bits that crashed yesterday, I'll worry about that when I get my feet more solidly planted.

If you prefer, though, I'll refrain future postings here to things that do nothing except either convey a positive experience, or have a question that needs an answer. As it was - yes - I did want to just say how things had gone. Perhaps I was even looking for someone to tell me things weren't as bad as all that, and yes there are bits of that experience that weren't brilliant... I mean, come on, have a day like that and what you want is a bit of validation and someone to tell you it's going to be better tomorrow. And, quite frankly, I think it's good that people talk about their experiences, good or bad, regardless of whether or not there's anything anyone can do to help. At least then we'll all know that we're not alone when we do run into problems, and if someone else is going to have a bad first day, then let them know that the second day gets better.

Instead, I'm sitting here, looking at a few postings from folks who are quite frankly looking a bit upset that I dropped a stone into their pond, and wondering... Oh, I don't know what I'm wondering. Why I seem to have created a storm in a teacup for being honest.

[gblock]

Actually, you know what bugs me more?

Write something honest, wearing your heart on your sleeve and feeling a bit gutted, and...

and suddenly feeling like somebody's just slammed a door in your face for darkening their doorstep.

...*and* moving your post, just to prove the point. Looks like I will have to restrict my discussion to warm fluffy thoughts in the future. You know, that's *just* what I needed. First, the software gives me a bad first day; then, its community the second.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

I don't think I was missing the point. Looks like you did post here just to bitch.

What are we supposed to do about your M5 problems? Commiserate with you? What use is that? You say you don't need any help.

Direct your complaints to MOTU specifically. They're the only ones who can do anything about it.

If the guy is having problems and posts them here, I see that as asking for help, not just a bitch session. Different people have different ways of showing they need assistance. When I moved to Tiger and DP 4.52 crashed everytime the transport was activated, I didn't get much help here either. Nor did MOTU do anything to help. NOTHING! Same thing with my M5 problems. 1.2 just did NOT work on my machine. Period. No help from MOTU and no real answers here.

Ultimately, I did fix them both, but frankly I was pissed. I was out the money, and even worse, my productivity came to a halt. So I really know how this feels. Any while I see your point that he might be expecting a bit much from M5 out of the box, that does not change the fact that his problems are real. And frankly, he has a right to vent a little (IMO.)

So maybe to answer your question: What are we supposed to do about your M5 problems? Commiserate with you? What use is that?

Perhaps, yes. If you have similar problems, maybe comparing notes with other users will bring up a fix? Maybe it will get MOTU's attention on the board (although I doubt that as they NEVER post anything remotely official here that I've seen.)

I guess what I am saying is that this is a great community and when someone comes in ranting about a problem, (and clearly he is not a novice and does appear pretty smart in his approach to finding solutions) then confirming the problem and offering possible solutions is what I would hope for (if it were me.)

Conversely, if there is no fix and I'm banging my head against the wall trying to find one, then I would want to know there is no solution. Then I can move on - or backward if need be. Unfortunately, NO most tech support people will never tell you about known problems. M-Audio does. Bose does as well. Maybe, on occassion, Apple will. But MOTU? Never. (At least, not yet.)

But again, ultimately, I think the guy stated his problem and while I have no soultions, I can say I've been there. DP and M5 work fantastic in my rig (I don't use Logic and maybe that's why???). But there were times when they didn't play well together and it can be annoying and frustrating. I would hope that this board would accept comments from folks who are having these kinds of problems.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Actually, you know what bugs me more?

Write something honest, wearing your heart on your sleeve and feeling a bit gutted, and...

and suddenly feeling like somebody's just slammed a door in your face for darkening their doorstep.

...*and* moving your post, just to prove the point. Looks like I will have to restrict my discussion to warm fluffy thoughts in the future. You know, that's *just* what I needed. First, the software gives me a bad first day; then, its community the second.

I have to agree. This is a MachFive issue, not a vague comment or question. These are REAL M5 issues. I for one would like to see it moved BACK to the MachFive area. Disagreement is not a valid reason for moving the guys post (IMO).

[chrispick]

He came here and complained about M5 problems.

Others responded by saying "how can we help you?" I responded that way.

He returned with: "I didn't come here looking for help to sort out these problems - I'm more than capable of doing so. I'm not stupid."

His words.

Then, he complained some more.

I understand his frustration. We've all had software and hardware problems. But this site is privately-owned and has no affiliation with MOTU (whom he blames for his problems). I have no affiliation with MOTU. He should level his complaint against those he feels are to blame.

That is, if he wants results.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

He came here and complained about M5 problems.

Others responded by saying "how can we help you?" I responded that way.

He returned with: "I didn't come here looking for help to sort out these problems - I'm more than capable of doing so. I'm not stupid."

His words.

Then, he complained some more.

I understand his frustration. We've all had software and hardware problems. But this site is privately-owned and has no affiliation with MOTU (whom he blames for his problems). I have no affiliation with MOTU. He should level his complaint against those he feels are to blame.

That is, if he wants results.

That is all true. OTOH, let's take another of his comments:

"5) Frustrated, on next load, go in to UVX importer to import EXS library - and can't figure out a way of sensibly batch importing my EXS library.

6) End up selecting them manually - and crash it three times in a row before I realise that one of Apple's loop-library-installed patches is crashing it every time."

That would help someone with a similar problem. And I have found the UVX imporrter a little 'awkward' at times - especially the first few times I tried it.

Again, different people have different ways of expressing themselves. And online forums like this are not condusive to friendly exchanges, per se. Things heat up fast when they're in print and you have to "compose" your answer or response. But I am CERTAIN if we were all hanging out in West LA Music talking about this, it would NOT have grown into a confrontational issue.

It is only my opinion, but I do think that his style of writing and his way of expressing himself is perhaps more the issue here than the content. I say that because I also tend to be direct and brutally honest, and can appear caustic at times when I don't mean it that way. I think he is being very direct and honest about his view of MACHFIVE. And sure, he didn't include his system info in the orignal post. That set some of us off. (In fact, I almost posted immediately as well with similar questions to you and Jim.) But why are people jumping on the guy? He is being honest and direct and articulates his issues well.

[chrispick]

Again, different people have different ways of expressing themselves. And online forums like this are not condusive to friendly exchanges, per se. Things heat up fast when they're in print and you have to "compose" your answer or response. But I am CERTAIN if we were all hanging out in West LA Music talking about this, it would NOT have grown into a confrontational issue.

You may be right. Upon re-reading his posts, I think I could've be mistaken about his tone and intent.

And, if so, I apologize to all for my dismissiveness.

[giles117]

Well I see both sides and will respond myself.

You have not, cause you ask not. James 4:2

If he didnt ask for help it is just a complaining session.

If I came here everyday and said DP4 sucks all it ever does is lock up. Never in detail explained the problem so that others could see, it would be perceived by all as a rant. If I said DP4 sucks amn I wish Iw as still using Logic, it would be preceived as a complaining session.

In essence that is what his 1st post did. Just my personal view.

Of course this was moved to the Gripes section of the Board.

[Kind Of Loud]

MIDI Life Crisis.......let me guess.....you and the original poster are sitting side by side right now laughing your butts off......right?