Building a 64 input system

[miket]

I'm writing to receive some advice on how building a 64 input system using MotU gear.

At present my system is quite twisted: 2 828mk3FW drive 2 8PRE respectively (32 channels); then a Yamaha 01v96i+MY8AD24 and another 8PRE (32 channels) are hooked to the first 828mk3FW via SPDIF I/O.
I'm planning to change computer and upgrading my OS, moving from Mojave to Catalina. In this case, FW won't work anymore.

Thus I thought that an 828mk3 might be substituted by 2 16A AVB, while retaining 3 8PRE and one 828mk3. In this case I could obtain a 64 inputs system (and 01v96i would loose its role of submixer).

Is this a feasible project or could I take into consideration other MotU interfaces? I'd prefer using audio interfaces with jack inputs, because 24AI (even though with more inputs) requires DB25 cables and some of my instruments (Roland Boutique series) have mini jack outputs that create issues.

Can 16A AVB be connected with a simple ethernet cable or do I need a switch?

I'm open to suggestions.
Thanks in advance.

[AGM]

Hi Mike -

I don't have a 16A or an 8Pre or an 828 MK3 but I have a 112D and a suggestion - so pinch of salt...

First set all your boxes to the same sample rate and select internal clock on 16A-1, see below.

Connect one 16A (call it 16A-1) to your new Mac over Thunderbolt. This link can carry (MOTU claim) up to 128 channels in each direction.

The second 16A (16A-2) is plugged into 16A-1 over AVB and you send four 8 channel streams from 16A-2 to 16-A1.
You route 16 analogue channel and 16 ADAT inputs to your AVB streams to 16A-1, but note clocking connection below.

You send one AVB stream from 1 to 2 so that you can clock 2 from 1.

Using ADAT two 8 Pres are plugged into 16-A1 and one 8 Pre and the 828 MK3 into A162. You will need to make an ADAT connection from each of the 16As back to the other boxes to carry sync. So everything is synced from 16A-1.

You route 16 analogue from 16A-1, 16 ADAT from 16A-1 and 32 channels from your AVB input streams to the Mac over the Thunderbolt connection.

Tedious video about MOTU Pro interace web app for routing etc.

https://youtu.be/k8le_URMmo8

In this setup you don't need an AVB switch. If you had an AVB switch you could then use an AVB stream to your Mac to record (up to 48KHz) and of course your Mac could be up to 100m from the switch. More importantly if you had an AVB switch you could examine and control your AVB connections and see what is going on inside your AVB network. MOTU make an AVB switch and so do Presonus - Presonus switch is road ready.

https://youtu.be/EKKtw7IPEOo
https://youtu.be/TgBdiea4Z5g

However - you are now using the 3 8Pres and the 828 Mk 3 in stand alone mode - I don't know how feasible that is in terms of access to settings and controls.

I don't have a MOTU interface with analogue, so I don't know if there are latency issues between the analogue inputs to your 16A and the ADAT input. You need to ask MOTU about this.

AGM

[HCMarkus]

I don't know if there are latency issues between the analogue inputs to your 16A and the ADAT input.

AGM

Won't be a problem, in my experience. If you are concerned, don't split coincident pairs of mics between Analog and Optical channels.

[miket]

Hi AGM,

Thanks for your detailed reply. In the meantime I had a dense correspondence with MotU guys and - at least for syncing - I was assured that 8PREs and 828mk3 will stay synchronized without issues to the 16As.
16A are my sole solution to reach my goal. 24AI would represent an issue, due to DB-25 cables that must be cut to measure or self soldered. Not all my instruments have standard TS or TRS outputs (Roland Boutique series, for instance) and/or reside in a position that makes almost impossible a straightforward connection. Space in my home studio is very limited and, for this reason, I built a wooden console (on wheels) to house several racks, audio interfaces, synthesizer expanders, outboards and so on. All audio, MIDI and power supply are on the back. Thus, once everything is connected, I won’t move it anymore, except for special reasons.

At present, my main concern is Thunderbolt data streams over a next to build Hackintosh. As far as I know Gigabyte Z490 Vision D motherboards are the most reliable, because of native thunderbolt port, but they are very hard to find (usually from Israel off eBay at higher prices). On the other hand, with different motherboards, thunderbolt ports can be added off PCI-e slots, but it’s a hit and miss.

I know for sure that UAD audio interfaces have greater compatibility with OSX and non-Apple hardware but... building a 64 channels system with this brand would be over my possibility.

[miket]

I don't know if there are latency issues between the analogue inputs to your 16A and the ADAT input.

AGM

Won't be a problem, in my experience. If you are concerned, don't split coincident pairs of mics between Analog and Optical channels.

Luckily I have only line type signals, such as synthesizers. Perhaps, the only latency issues might arise if MIDI signals arrive later or earlier than audio ones.

[AGM]

If you are using standard sample rates it looks like the standard USB 2 connection to your 16A will be just enough.

From the MOTU tech specs page for the 16A

Thunderbolt (44.1 to 96 kHz): 128 in/out
Thunderbolt (176.4 to 192 kHz): 64 in/out
USB 2.0 (44.1 to 48 kHz): 64 in/out
USB 2.0 (88.2 to 96 kHz): 32 in/out
USB 2.0 (176.4 to 192 kHz): 24 in/out

Might be a back up to your Thunderbolt plans.

ta AGM

[miket]

If you are using standard sample rates it looks like the standard USB 2 connection to your 16A will be just enough.

From the MOTU tech specs page for the 16A

Thunderbolt (44.1 to 96 kHz): 128 in/out
Thunderbolt (176.4 to 192 kHz): 64 in/out
USB 2.0 (44.1 to 48 kHz): 64 in/out
USB 2.0 (88.2 to 96 kHz): 32 in/out
USB 2.0 (176.4 to 192 kHz): 24 in/out

Might be a back up to your Thunderbolt plans.

ta AGM

Thanks again AGM, I owe you a debt of gratitude for your support
In the meantime I succeeded ordering (from Japan...) a Gigabyte Z490 Vision D, a motherboard that is is known to work natively with thunderbolt under OSX. I had to do this massive upgrade because my actual computer was built in 2013 and even though for certain tasks is still good, FireWire protocol is now outdated. Luckily "old" FireWire gear such as 8PREs and a 828mk3 can be reused as converters. I'm only sorry that a second hand Yamaha 01v96i digital mixer I recently bought will became almost useless once I set up this new system made up 2 16A AVB etc.
On the other hand, pervious system was too cumbersome to manage.

[mikehalloran]

I'm planning to change computer and upgrading my OS, moving from Mojave to Catalina. In this case, FW won't work anymore.

Says who?

The Catalina drivers aren’t listed for any of the discontinued interfaces but that doesn’t mean they won’t work—only that they’re no longer supported. Many of us have them working over Catalina including my 828mkII on my iMac Pro.

[miket]

I'm planning to change computer and upgrading my OS, moving from Mojave to Catalina. In this case, FW won't work anymore.

Says who?

The Catalina drivers aren’t listed for any of the discontinued interfaces but that doesn’t mean they won’t work—only that they’re no longer supported. Many of us have them working over Catalina including my 828mkII on my iMac Pro.

I found a thread on this forum where it was said that under Catalina "old" FW MotU gear don't work. I opened also a tech link on MotU web site and I was told that FireWire drivers support ceased - at least from MotU side - since High Sierra. This sounds strange to me too, but ?ìm reporting their answer.
Anyway, I needed also to make a huge step forward, thus I decided to kill two birds with a stone: upgrading my actual computer platform (2013) and making things easier on connections. A 32 channels system over SPDIF is way than desirable.
By the way, a real Mac is always more reliable than another kind of computer running OSX.

[mikehalloran]

Well, we aren’t MOTU. In addition to allowing older FW interfaces to work over Catalina, the latest drivers resolve a number of issues in High Sierra and Mojave. Again, it’s a support issue. My 828mkII is one of the last made, making it over 14 years old. I don’t blame MOTU for deciding not to dedicate any more resources to it.

[miket]

Well, we aren’t MOTU. In addition to allowing older FW interfaces to work over Catalina, the latest drivers resolve a number of issues in High Sierra and Mojave. Again, it’s a support issue. My 828mkII is one of the last made, making it over 14 years old. I don’t blame MOTU for deciding not to dedicate any more resources to it.

I have nothing to say about MotU behavior, perhaps they are between a rock and a hard place when operating systems are upgraded by Apple.
Even though I could have risked to move to Catalina and take a leap in the dark (nothing in computer technology is granted for sure) and find that my FireWire system can be thrown away, I preferred to make a substantial improvement buying a couple of 16A AVB and a new computer with thunderbolt ports. It was quite expensive, but I solved two issues at the same time: number of input channels and a newer and more powerful computer, that will serve me for the next years to come.