Need advice on possible trash-can Mac Pro purchase

[greg328]

Hello MOTU braintrust, looking for some expert advice. I’m currently on my second cheesegrater Mac Pro— my first one was a 3.1, currently on a 5.1 12-core 3.3 Ghz. I’ve got it fairly maxed out with RAM and 4 drives. I also have a current Metal-enabled video card to run 10.14.

Here’s my issue: the darn thing is just becoming less and less reliable. Sometimes it shuts off for no reason and then reboots. Sometimes some of my USB devices running on a PCIe card lose touch. I’ve got the OS on a fast SSD so boot times are fast enough. Lots of crashes and slow to load large DP projects.

I use a UA Apollo FireWire- but would love to install the Thunderbolt expansion-but of course these cheesegrater Macs can’t run Thunderbolt.

The new Mac Pros start at $6k. No can do.

So I’m looking at the trashcan Macs from 2013 and forward. Of course they have no PCI slots so that’s an issue, I have four PCI cards. I can get an expansion chassis but I would need one that could handle 4 cards. $$$

How many drive bays are available in these things? SATA? I’ve got 4 drives. I know I can research this stuff and I will.

Also they seem to be Thunderbolt 2 where as the latest specs seems to be Thunderbolt 3 using USB-C style connector. Can TB2 be converted with an adapter to TB3?

Just looking for some advice on the best trashcan Mac to get.

I need more speed, reliability, and the ability to use the latest macOS. And Thunderbolt! Of course the cheese grater Macs and its processors are limited to the previous generation OS.

Thanks in advance!
Greg
Austin TX.


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[mikehalloran]

If you can get one inexpensively enough, might be something to consider.

A few things:

If you replace the AHCI SSD (highly recommended), have a bootable USB drive so that you can install High Sierra or later onto it when done.

You absolutely want to remove the AHCI blade and replace it with an NVMe 3 x4 SSD to double the RW speed and max capacity—the job takes 5 minutes to install. The Crucial P2 is the best bang for the buck at $225 for 2TB. There are faster blades but the x2 PCI bus in the 6.1 can't handle the bandwidth.
https://smile.amazon.com/Crucial-NAND-N ... ref=sr_1_3
You'll need a $15 adapter
https://smile.amazon.com/Sintech-Adapte ... ref=sr_1_4
and a $4 heat sink
https://smile.amazon.com/Aluminum-Heats ... ref=sr_1_5

OWC has one with included heat stnk and doesn't need adapter for $439 — the claimed faster speeds apply to the 2015- on iMacs and MBPs with a 4 lane PCI bus which the 6.1 MP does not have.
https://smile.amazon.com/OWC-Performanc ... ref=sr_1_3

Depending on size, there's a market for the old AHCI blade if 1TB. 2013–14 Mac Books have deep sleep issues with NVMe blades.


Like the 5.1, the 6.1 (trashcan) can be upgraded cheaply with newer CPUs. There are many articles on this.

Certain versions of the 6.1 had GPU issues that were handled under warranty. Not a bad idea to read up on those.

These were/are good machines but the current iMac Pro kicks its butt as do many versions of the Mini. A 12 core MP 6.1 has a hard time running 150 instances of VIs with a convo reverb on each track (admittedly a hard load) but a base model iMP runs 300–400 tracks without breaking a sweat as can a loaded Mini (the iMP has a much more robust GPU, however).

https://www.apple.com/shop/refurbished/mac/imac-pro

[greg328]

Mike, thanks so much for responding to my request, I was hoping you would chime in! A lot of what you said is a little bit Greek to me, but I’m gonna research it.

Could you explain a little further what a “blade” is, exactly? And as regards an iMac Pro, I need card slots, but I suppose that could be resolved with a PCIe expansion chassis, correct?

I also am driving 2 large monitors, one of them is an Apple Cinema display running off I believe Displayport, and the other is a large LG 65 inch TV that I am using an HDMI output on my video card to drive. How would I do that with an iMac Pro?


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[HCMarkus]

If you can get the connectivity and horsepower you need from a 6,1, there is still one looming potential issue: All 6,1s use custom Apple-specific GPUs, and when one fails (there were issues with some models) you are looking at a costly replacement if you can find one.

Then again, if ANY GPU fails on any computer these days, the replacement is gonna cost big bucks... thanks to cryptocurrency miners gobbling up GPUs as soon as they hit the market.

[greg328]

Thank you for letting me know, looks like it may be best to avoid the Trash Can generation Mac Pros— but if I want TB connectivity, PCIe slots, lots of drive bays— there really is no other option than the new 2021 Mac Pro. They do have PCIe slots, right??


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[mikehalloran]

Hmmm... a TB3 Mac can use TB 1/2 peripherals with the right adapter and cable(s) but a TB2 Mac cannot use TB3 peripherals.

What is a Blade type SSD? Looks like this:


SSD in a 6.1 can only be a blade type:


Apple used AHCI blades in 2013–2014 portables, the 6.1 and as the SSD portion of any Fusion drive. In 2015, Apple doubled the PCI bandwidth of everything except the MP 6.1 and Mini and some Macs went to the much (much, much) faster NVMe 3 x4 blade to take advantage of this (those 2015–16 iMacs and MB Airs with AHCI SSDs really benefit from an NVMe upgrade).

AHCI storage is long discontinued—can't buy new anymore. The NVMe is backward compatible with a few caveats: Minimum OS is High Sierra—best to install the OS from a USB external after the blade, 2013–14 portables have a Deep Sleep issue with NVMe (there's a workaround that may affect battery life), 2013–14 and the MP 6.1 have a 2-Lane PCI bus that affects top speed—NVMe blades are only 2–3x faster than AHCI in these.

Then again, if ANY GPU fails on any computer these days, the replacement is gonna cost big bucks... thanks to cryptocurrency miners gobbling up GPUs as soon as they hit the market.

Hadn't heard about that but it does make sense. Ever since Fry's closed, my In box no longer receives the latest CPU pricing.

They (MP 7.1) do have PCIe slots, right??

Oh yes — as long as you aren't looking to install a MOTU 424 card due to incompatible firmware.

[greg328]

Mike, amazing information as usual, thank you so much. No I won’t be installing the MOTU PCIe card. I used them for a decade +, but slowly migrated away from MOTU I/O to UA Apollo audio FireWire. (I still have my PCIe 424 card and HD 192 and 1224 interfaces if anybody is interested!).

I’d LOVE to add the UA TB3 card to increase my UA DSP many X but I’ve got to upgrade my machine in order to do so.

My PCIe cards are 1) an SSD drive 2) USB port expansion card, 3) UA processor PCIe accelerator, and 4) new metal-capable video card, I forget which make/model.

I have have 4 internal drives, maxing out the drive bays: (1 SSD and 4 SATA spinners I’d like to preserve. I also have a 2-drive USB dock with (2) 4 terabyte SATA spinners for redundant Time Machine backup.

I’d like to preserve/transfer all of the above to the next machine.

Off the top of your head, using rough numbers, what sorts of speed increases would I experience, going from my 12-core 2010 5.1 to either a 6.1 trashcan (of course there are many varieties), to the latest 2021 7.1 Mac Pros? Of course beyond native processor speed, I am very much desiring to move into the world of Thunderbolt audio I/O. That’s what is mainly driving this decision—I know I’ll enjoy much higher I/O throughput in my Digital Performer sessions by doing so.

Seems like aiming for a 6.1 trashcan model might be a moot pursuit, due to all the previously mentioned limitations. They are much more affordable than the newest 7.1 generation, but I would need to add several peripherals to preserve my current hardware as mentioned above.

Tough pickle— I’ve always strove to have at least a semi cutting-edge Mac for Digital Performer music production but time and technology has moved on and my 5.1 is old news now.

Greg


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[greg328]

Oddly, Tapatalk would not let me edit the body of my previous post, there’s an error—in my internal drives count, obviously I only have 3 SATA spinners and the SSD, for 4 total.


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[nk_e]

Any chance you can hold out until the end of the year for the next generation of Apple Silicon releases? The software migration is proceeding along at a very fast clip, Rosetta2 seems quite robust for a surprising number of applications, and I have a feeling that they will be quite powerful and affordable.

If not, I get it. I upgraded to an iMacPro based largely on advice in this forum. It’s been an ok move, but I do encourage you to be very thorough in considering ALL related costs.

I too had a stocked up 5,1. The new TB multi-drive enclosures I needed were expensive and I didn’t properly anticipate the limitations of TB cable length and the implications for enclosure noise. I even tried a very expensive active TB cable to lace the drive far away from the workstation, but that proved unreliable. I bought a single UAD approved external enclosure for my UAD octo card, but (the story is much to involved to go into here) using it introduces stability issues with the system such that most times I do not use it. You also want to make sure you have quality expansion docs and usb hubs, etc., etc.

In all honesty, Fw800 and USB 2/3 were my world before upgrading. I had not realized how out of date I was about the real world use of these new technologies. Looking back on it, there were some costs I could have avoided, but that’s the price of learning...

Whatever you decide to do, good luck!

[HCMarkus]

Here’s my issue: the darn thing is just becoming less and less reliable. Sometimes it shuts off for no reason and then reboots. Sometimes some of my USB devices running on a PCIe card lose touch. I’ve got the OS on a fast SSD so boot times are fast enough. Lots of crashes and slow to load large DP projects.

The slow to load thing might be a challenge to overcome, but have you tried re-seating your RAM and other computer-connected devices, or reinstalling your OS and DP? My 5,1 is rock-solid, and I've got a spare 12-core standing by if an issue arises. You could even pick up a used single-CPU 5,1 (make sure it matches your existing MP year -either 2009 or 2010/2012* to insure compatibility) and slip in your existing CPU tray.

An approach like that, whilst holding out for Apple Silicon as nk_e suggests might be your best option at this point...

*Many "5,1" Mac Pros are actually 2009 4,1 Mac Pros that have been flashed to 5,1 status. Although a flashed 2009 and 2010/2012 "true" 5,1 are identical from a performance standpoint, certain parts including the CPU Tray, must match model year. 2010/2012 ARE identical and all parts are interchangeable.

[greg328]

HC- I appreciate all the input, actually I do believe my 5.1 is really a 2009 4.1 it’s been hot rodded!

Several times I’ve re-seated my RAM. peripherals and cards, I think everything’s in there snug as a bug in a rug.

Not exactly sure why my machine acts up sometimes, the main bottleneck is my FireWire connection to the Apollo. I really want to go Thunderbolt and have DP optimized with that protocol.

As regards waiting for the new silicon-based M1 Mac pro versus maybe picking up an Intel one this year, I don’t know, I guess I need to see pricing but frankly, they’re all too expensive!


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[HCMarkus]

You can pick up a 2009 single CPU MP for something in the range of $300 on eBay... might be an option. Also, keep an eye on local Craigslist. I got my last dual 2010 there for the ridiculously low price of $150 (no, it wasn't hot.. it came from Sony Studios in San Diego, when they moved to MP 6,1s and was being sold for money to pay for an employee BBQ. I guess it was, in fact, a steal!)

One other thought... you could try gently tightening or loosening the CPU Heatsinks just a tad; a dodgy contact there can definitely cause trouble. But don't over tighten! Especially if you CPU upgrade was done using a lidded CPU,you can bend the CPU socket pins and that will wipe your machine out.

https://www.anandtech.com/show/2800/upg ... mac-pro/11

The Apple Silicon machines released to date appear to offer tremendous bang for the buck. We'll see what another few months bring.

[greg328]

Thanks HC— I’m done with the cheesegraters— I’m on my second one! Onward and upward—

I’ll try your advice regarding the heatsink—

Greg


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