When will DP offer articulation sets?

[bayswater]

It can't be done now. There is no reason it couldn't be done with programming.

Well, yes, anything can be done with programming. But things that are basic to the design take a lot more programming, and unlikely if it pushes a lot of other stuff off the priority list.

In a way, DP suffers from a lot of thing like this. Decisions decades ago that made it work well then, now get in the way. Vracks might be one of them.

Another, related to this is the orientation to external/hardware MIDI devices. I end up using the Logic drum editor because the DP drum editor doesn't really work well with VI drums.

[dix]

Please stop debating with me, this is getting tiresome. V-Rack plugins can't be automated and I need that to happen in order to fully accept DP. End of discussion. Good day sir.

Debating? I sincerely thought I was helping you with an aspect of DP you might be unfamiliar with. Apologies for taking time out my day to help you. I won't do so again.

[dewdman42]

It can't be done now. There is no reason it couldn't be done with programming.

Well, yes, anything can be done with programming. But things that are basic to the design take a lot more programming, and unlikely if it pushes a lot of other stuff off the priority list.

yea let's not fix anything then!

V-Racks are great concept, but MOTU needs to make the V-rack plugins automatable. That's a deal breaker for me honestly. Its part of why I use LogicPro actually..which the default mode is basically a V-Rack model, as is the case with Cubase and Studio One I might add....all of whom can automate plugins on the virtual rack!

The difference is that DP started out with each sequence having its own mixer...rather then a detached mixer possibility. Later on they added the V-Rack, and its great...actually DP could lead all of them with the fact that you can have multiple sequences that send MIDI to, and receive audio from...centralized V-Racks. That is great! But the plugins need to be automat-able to be complete.

Ironically, chunks are one of the only reasons I would even consider coming back to DP as my primary DAW. But ironically...chunks can't automate V-Rack plugins. I'm happy for you and others that his is not important to you. its important to me.

thanks for your time.

[bayswater]

yea let's not fix anything then!

I didn't say it wasn't important. It blunts the advantage of a unique feature of DP.

I said it is not something that would be easy to fix without significant cost, and so, in the world of software developers and finance departments, something that is less likely that other things to get fixed.

I get the sense you have lived in the world of capital funding for technology, how things get on the priority list, so I'm sure you know what I'm talking about.

[James Steele]

Please stop debating with me, this is getting tiresome. V-Rack plugins can't be automated and I need that to happen in order to fully accept DP. End of discussion. Good day sir.

Debating? I sincerely thought I was helping you with an aspect of DP you might be unfamiliar with. Apologies for taking time out my day to help you. I won't do so again.

That’s what I thought as well. I took it as trying to help. Let’s try to be a little less “bristly” around here.

[CharlzS]

We’re happy to announce an exciting feature in collaboration with PreSonus! A two-way communication between Studio One 5.2 and our Vienna Synchron Player makes articulation switching extremely easy and convenient.

Studio One automatically shows you all the available articulations
of a given Synchron Player instance!

The future seems to be alliances.

[gzap]

S1 just updated their articulation mapping, now it looks to be the best in the market.
I'd love DP to add both a chord track and articulations, both of those would be great.

I'll still stick with DP for the power of chunks, its great when your doing shows with lots of cues.
But it needs some updates, I still haven't even tried to use clips and don't know if I ever will in the context of DP.
Hopefully the programmers are listening to the users and not adding what they think would be cool.

[Michael Canavan]

S1 just updated their articulation mapping, now it looks to be the best in the market.
I'd love DP to add both a chord track and articulations, both of those would be great.

Articulation mapping for sure. Personally I don't care about any chord tricks.

What I hope DP users do in response, I'm going to plug it in some other DP communities that have an interest in sharing resources, is an articulation map database. Logic doesn't really have this, some people tried sharing drop box articulations but that's not a viable method. It would be cool to see MOTU or someone take up a website with downloadable articulation sets you could upload your mappings to,

I'll still stick with DP for the power of chunks, its great when your doing shows with lots of cues.
But it needs some updates, I still haven't even tried to use clips and don't know if I ever will in the context of DP.
Hopefully the programmers are listening to the users and not adding what they think would be cool.

Representatives from MOTU are acutely aware we want articulation mapping and MPE etc.

Clips are almost there, but even as they stand you could use them for live show if you wanted.
I haven't done it mostly because I have no reason to, but in Bitwig or Live you can launch an entire songs worth of tracks and let it play through. Basically the difference between Session Clips (launching all tracks in a row at the same time), and Chunks is that Session Clips are just overriding a Sequence Chunks timeline, not starting a new Sequence Chunk. So using Session clips they all share the same AU and VSTs. A real life example of how this would be better in some cases is reverb and delay tails could overlap into the next song, absolutely no delay between songs etc. This is the way I did live shows using Live for years.

[gzap]

S1 just updated their articulation mapping, now it looks to be the best in the market.
I'd love DP to add both a chord track and articulations, both of those would be great.

Articulation mapping for sure. Personally I don't care about any chord tricks.

What I hope DP users do in response, I'm going to plug it in some other DP communities that have an interest in sharing resources, is an articulation map database. Logic doesn't really have this, some people tried sharing drop box articulations but that's not a viable method. It would be cool to see MOTU or someone take up a website with downloadable articulation sets you could upload your mappings to,

I'll still stick with DP for the power of chunks, its great when your doing shows with lots of cues.
But it needs some updates, I still haven't even tried to use clips and don't know if I ever will in the context of DP.
Hopefully the programmers are listening to the users and not adding what they think would be cool.

Representatives from MOTU are acutely aware we want articulation mapping and MPE etc.

Clips are almost there, but even as they stand you could use them for live show if you wanted.
I haven't done it mostly because I have no reason to, but in Bitwig or Live you can launch an entire songs worth of tracks and let it play through. Basically the difference between Session Clips (launching all tracks in a row at the same time), and Chunks is that Session Clips are just overriding a Sequence Chunks timeline, not starting a new Sequence Chunk. So using Session clips they all share the same AU and VSTs. A real life example of how this would be better in some cases is reverb and delay tails could overlap into the next song, absolutely no delay between songs etc. This is the way I did live shows using Live for years.

Good idea, there should be a database and standard format xml type file for keyswitches. Ideally the libraries would come with them in the utopian world where composers get to keep publishing.

Clips I disagree with, only because Live already does this and its really the software you should use if you're playing live. DP should be concentrating on the scoring niche and add extras that help that market, not taking time to try to become the F35 of warplanes, a non functional tool of all trades. (Not that I think of DP like that, but in my rather biased opinion they'd do better by making it the scoring software instead of another DAW with sort of ok clips as well).

I'm only one opinion, but I have invested in both Live and DP as well as Dorico and Mainstage, all have their specific uses. I don't think one piece of software can do all of those well.

[dewdman42]

I don't agree that S1 has "best in market" articulation management. its a nice improvement from what they had before...it still cannot handle everything that LogicPro, Cubase and Cakewalk Sonar can do, to be frank; in terms of output capability.

What it DOES do better then anything else so far is provide a capability for plugins to report back to the DAW an articulation map directly from the plugin automatically, while other daws require plugin makers to actually provide an expression map file, or articulation set file, etc.. though to date, very few plugins ever actually did that much.

And so far only VSL has provided any support for that in SOME Of their Synchron player instruments. But this is really very simplistic. Simplistic users will enjoy the seamlessness of that, they can just insert the plugin, choose a preset and then the articulations appear by name in S1 to choose. However many instruments have complex arrangements of features that require each users to determine on their own how they want to set things up, in which case those simplistic articulation maps provided by the Plugin (if provided at all) won't even make sense to use. It looks spiffy in the demos though because it looks easy...no need to to program any articulation map! For simplistic scenarios anyway... and only for plugins that actually add that capability to their plugins, yet to be seen.

I think you see lots of reaction from users because it looks "easy" and people seem to want "easy", and I like easy too, but only if it can actually handle all the articulation management issues that come up with some libraries...which S1 still does not do as well or as thoroughly as the DAW's I mentioned already.

1. No support for channelizing events on a per-articulation basis. They say they are working on that, but I will bet money that they will overlook the need to propogate expression events across channels properly while following notes that are being channelized. By the way, LogicPro and Cubase do channelize, but also do not propagate. Only Cakewalk Sonar does as of now. Though LogicPro can be programmed by the user to do so with Scripter.
2. No support for articulation latency adjust. To be fair, none of the DAW's yet do that. But at least with LogicPro it can be done in Scripter.
3. As far as I can see, no support for having articulation groups, something Cubase provides (and possibly Cakewalk, I'm not sure). it can also be done in LogicPro using Scripter and automation parameters.
4. Nobody provides zoning situations so that articulation switches can be selected based not only on a primary ID, but also within velocity or pitch ranges, or based on the range of another CC controller, etc. Cakewalk Sonar can probably do that, I'm not sure. Cubase can do some of that with its sound slot approach. LogicPro doesn't do it built in, but can do it with Scripter support. S1 cannot.
5. Its not clear to me yet whether S1 can handle poly-articulation scenarios in chords where all the notes start on the same timestamp, where two notes in a chord are using different articulations. This can be done by LogicPro and Cubase for sure..not sure about Cakewalk Sonar.

[Michael Canavan]

Clips I disagree with, only because Live already does this and its really the software you should use if you're playing live. DP should be concentrating on the scoring niche and add extras that help that market, not taking time to try to become the F35 of warplanes, a non functional tool of all trades. (Not that I think of DP like that, but in my rather biased opinion they'd do better by making it the scoring software instead of another DAW with sort of ok clips as well).

I'm only one opinion, but I have invested in both Live and DP as well as Dorico and Mainstage, all have their specific uses. I don't think one piece of software can do all of those well.

I've used Live since v3, Bitwig recently etc. etc. None of them have Chunks. the combination of Chunks and Clips could and will IMO end up being the most powerful for live performance set up you can have. The fact that there are all these tags for live concerts in DP means DP is already used by people for backing tracks etc. and Clips adds that extra element of live theatre to the experience.

So yeah basically I completely disagree. DP should expand on Clips, integrate it into DP to an extent that it's not just an ad on like it is now. Just the fact that you need Clips to loop, and that packed into Clips MIDI is not editable in the regular editors is a mess and needs to change.

DP could use the sort of controller support that Live has with macro parameter support for instant access to the most used parameters of a synth, FX etc. None of this takes away from the experience as a a scoring DAW, in fact it enhances it. A session clip with the main theme of a score is supremely useful to have in a new chunk etc.

[Michael Canavan]

Ironically, chunks are one of the only reasons I would even consider coming back to DP as my primary DAW. But ironically...chunks can't automate V-Rack plugins. .

I used to think that because V-Racks do not have tracks that it would be impossible to have track automation in V-Racks, but considering Live and Reaper have undo for plug ins in general, whether there's automation written or not, I do not see V-Racks as being an unsurmountable obstacle to some system of track automation.

In regards to articulation sets, I hope that when DP does get this feature, the community sets up some sort of sharing website etc. for the sets we make. It's daunting to think about doing this for the dozens of libraries I have that do keyswitching, but tweaking someone else's set makes it not so bad. There are third party applications for Cubase and Logic, but they look kinda dumbed down.

I think in the bigger picture DP is super overdue for v11, that's for sure, hopefully we get articulation mapping that's decent and MPE. At least those are the big things that have me sometimes using other software.

[dewdman42]

I am certain that Babylon Waves will release a huge collection of articulation maps for DP if and when MOTU makes the engine for it. They did it already for the other DAW's and will almost certainly do it for DP too.

[gzap]

I don't agree that S1 has "best in market" articulation management. its a nice improvement from what they had before...it still cannot handle everything that LogicPro, Cubase and Cakewalk Sonar can do, to be frank; in terms of output capability.

What it DOES do better then anything else so far is provide a capability for plugins to report back to the DAW an articulation map directly from the plugin automatically, while other daws require plugin makers to actually provide an expression map file, or articulation set file, etc.. though to date, very few plugins ever actually did that much.

And so far only VSL has provided any support for that in SOME Of their Synchron player instruments. But this is really very simplistic. Simplistic users will enjoy the seamlessness of that, they can just insert the plugin, choose a preset and then the articulations appear by name in S1 to choose. However many instruments have complex arrangements of features that require each users to determine on their own how they want to set things up, in which case those simplistic articulation maps provided by the Plugin (if provided at all) won't even make sense to use. It looks spiffy in the demos though because it looks easy...no need to to program any articulation map! For simplistic scenarios anyway... and only for plugins that actually add that capability to their plugins, yet to be seen.

I think you see lots of reaction from users because it looks "easy" and people seem to want "easy", and I like easy too, but only if it can actually handle all the articulation management issues that come up with some libraries...which S1 still does not do as well or as thoroughly as the DAW's I mentioned already.

1. No support for channelizing events on a per-articulation basis. They say they are working on that, but I will bet money that they will overlook the need to propogate expression events across channels properly while following notes that are being channelized. By the way, LogicPro and Cubase do channelize, but also do not propagate. Only Cakewalk Sonar does as of now. Though LogicPro can be programmed by the user to do so with Scripter.
2. No support for articulation latency adjust. To be fair, none of the DAW's yet do that. But at least with LogicPro it can be done in Scripter.
3. As far as I can see, no support for having articulation groups, something Cubase provides (and possibly Cakewalk, I'm not sure). it can also be done in LogicPro using Scripter and automation parameters.
4. Nobody provides zoning situations so that articulation switches can be selected based not only on a primary ID, but also within velocity or pitch ranges, or based on the range of another CC controller, etc. Cakewalk Sonar can probably do that, I'm not sure. Cubase can do some of that with its sound slot approach. LogicPro doesn't do it built in, but can do it with Scripter support. S1 cannot.
5. Its not clear to me yet whether S1 can handle poly-articulation scenarios in chords where all the notes start on the same timestamp, where two notes in a chord are using different articulations. This can be done by LogicPro and Cubase for sure..not sure about Cakewalk Sonar.

That's an interesting list, but its also a list that no program has.Its also a set that I'd expect are more important to you than most other users. Depending on whether you're a big template user, with channel's per articulation or running only on articulations on one channel per instrument. I'm not on S1, though thinking about it, so certainly don't know every other DAW's approach inside out. I"m just looking at the demo videos and reading posts on a couple of other boards that make me see the S1 approach as one I'd be really, really happy to see in DP.

[gzap]

Clips I disagree with, only because Live already does this and its really the software you should use if you're playing live. DP should be concentrating on the scoring niche and add extras that help that market, not taking time to try to become the F35 of warplanes, a non functional tool of all trades. (Not that I think of DP like that, but in my rather biased opinion they'd do better by making it the scoring software instead of another DAW with sort of ok clips as well).

I'm only one opinion, but I have invested in both Live and DP as well as Dorico and Mainstage, all have their specific uses. I don't think one piece of software can do all of those well.

I've used Live since v3, Bitwig recently etc. etc. None of them have Chunks. the combination of Chunks and Clips could and will IMO end up being the most powerful for live performance set up you can have. The fact that there are all these tags for live concerts in DP means DP is already used by people for backing tracks etc. and Clips adds that extra element of live theatre to the experience.

So yeah basically I completely disagree. DP should expand on Clips, integrate it into DP to an extent that it's not just an ad on like it is now. Just the fact that you need Clips to loop, and that packed into Clips MIDI is not editable in the regular editors is a mess and needs to change.

DP could use the sort of controller support that Live has with macro parameter support for instant access to the most used parameters of a synth, FX etc. None of this takes away from the experience as a a scoring DAW, in fact it enhances it. A session clip with the main theme of a score is supremely useful to have in a new chunk etc.

Interesting take, but again, in my world almost nobody I know is using DP to run live shows. Ableton is all over that market, from dj's, musicals, to sound artists to a vocal duo that use Ableton to do live looping, though I could see a niche for backing tracks for some big shows.

DP has always been a niche DAW, with a solid base among film composers.

Oh, and I've been on DP since 2.54, after switching over from studio vision and sound designer II. But if I'm doing a live gig, I'm reaching for either Ableton or mainstage, or even Qlab, depending on the format. Never DP.