Updating from DP 7 to DP 10 on a new computer

[phaser74]

Hello Everyone,

I am currently using DP 7.21 on a Mac pro 1,1 with 8GB Ram and OS 10.6.8. Also, I’m using a MOTU 828mk3 FireWire device. Some of my larger projects are starting to bog down the 1,1 and I just don’t want to put any more money into it. Plus, I want to upgrade to DP 10 (which I’m unable to do on the 1,1). The new Mac pro’s look sweet, but I don’t think the $6,000 price tag would translate to $6,000 in value for me. I was considering getting a high-spec Mac mini, but now I see they are being shipped with M1 chips and I've read that many complex software are not yet working well with the new M1 chip (though, I’m not sure if this is true?)

That said, I’m considering purchasing a Mac pro 5,1 as an interim computer. This way, I can upgrade to DP 10 and still use my 828mk3 FW without having to get various adapters and so forth. And then maybe a bit later I will buy a M1-chipped computer and a newer MOTU audio interface.

So, I have a few questions:

1) If I do purchase a 5,1, what would be the best OS to have installed considering I’ll be using the 828mk3 FW and upgrading to DP 10 from DP 7.21… either 10.12, 10.13 or 10.14? Or maybe even 10.15, but I’m not sure if the 828mk3 FW is compatible or would play nice with 10.15?

2) What would be the best way to migrate my DP 7.21 projects from the 1,1 to the 5,1?
-- Should I do a fresh install of DP 7.21 on the 5,1 (using the original install disks), then do the upgrade to DP 10, and then transfer the projects?
-- Or, should I do a fresh install of DP 7.21 on the 5,1 (using the original install disks), then transfer the projects, and then do the upgrade to DP 10?
-- Or, is all this unnecessary... maybe it is just better to install DP 10 onto the 5,1 without first installing DP 7. Time is not a concern of mine - I'm more concerned with making sure the DP 7 projects transfer smoothly into DP 10.

Last question… I’m also considering getting a 2012 mac mini (2.3GHz Quad-Core Core i7, 16GB memory, 1TB SSD). How much better performance would I get from this mac mini setup compared to my current Mac pro 1,1 (2 x 2.66 Dual-Core, 8GB memory, 500GB 7200-rpm HDD)? Or would it be about the same performance? I don’t use virtual instruments, plus I'm only using plug-ins that came with DP 7 (no 3rd party stuff).

Thank you all for your time,
-David

[mikehalloran]

I would not buy a 2012 Mini — yes it can run Catalina but the RAM is limited to 16GB and it's hit EOL. It will run DP 7.24 (not 7.21) as long as you have access to a CD drive so that you can authorize it, There’s no OS that runs both it and DP 10.

The 2014 Mini was a step backward in some ways — among them is that the RAM is soldered in — the most you'll find is 16GB. I just upgraded one to an SSD and it's working nicely with Performer Lite. If it has a Fusion drive or SSD, the NVMe blade can be upgraded to 2TB — throw that HDD away. The HDD version does not have a socket for an NVMe blade as I found out on that one I did last month. Only if you find one really cheap.

I would look for a 2018 Mini, a 2020 iMac or 2017 iMac Pro. Any of these is going to run circles around your old Mac Pro and have years of future-proofing built in.

If you're not in a big hurry, wait till DP can run on the new Apple Silicon Mini. These scream for le$$ than you'd think. Add a 4K monitor for $400 or so.

My 2¢

[phaser74]

"I would not buy a 2012 Mini"

Thanks for your input Mike!

I think I’m going to go with a 2018 Mac mini. Unfortunately, I can't wait around for DP compatibility with the new M1 chip. Also, I know the iMacs are powerful, but I don’t like all-in-one forms.

But anyway, if I have Catalina running on the 2018 Mac mini, will I be able to use my 828mk3 FireWire interface? I know there are adapters that can allow a FW 400 device to go to Thunderbolt inputs, but to my understanding, there is no support for the 828mk3 FW unit on Catalina. I didn’t see it on the supported list of legacy interfaces. Does anybody know if I can use an 828mk3 FW with Catalina?

Thank you.

[mikehalloran]

…
But anyway, if I have Catalina running on the 2018 Mac mini, will I be able to use my 828mk3 FireWire interface? I know there are adapters that can allow a FW 400 device to go to Thunderbolt inputs, but to my understanding, there is no support for the 828mk3 FW unit on Catalina. I didn’t see it on the supported list of legacy interfaces. Does anybody know if I can use an 828mk3 FW with Catalina?

Thank you.

Many threads on that subject. Lack of official support doesn't mean it won't but, in your case the 828mk3 Hybrid is officially supported—only difference is that it has a USB port in addition to FW.

I run my 828mkII on my iMac Pro over Catalina with no problem. The Catalina drivers work backward to High Sierra. You need the Apple FW–TB adapter and the Apple TB2–TB3 adapter plus a FW400–800 adapter or cable. I prefer the cable. The Apple adapters can be plugged into each other into the Mini eliminating the need for any Thunderbolt cables.

I connect a bit differently, having a twin drive TB2 dock in the middle. FW400–800 cable into Apple FW–TB adapter into one of the ports in my TB Dock. From the other TB port, I run a TB cable into the TB2–TB3 adapter that plugs into one of the USB-C ports into my iMP.

[phaser74]

"If you're not in a big hurry, wait till DP can run on the new Apple Silicon Mini."

After mulling over everything, I've decided to upgrade my Mac pro 1,1. I'm going to add 8 GB memory (for a total of 16 GB) and add an SSD (right now my mac is only running HDD's). My gut feeling is that this will get me enough of a performance boost to keep up with the larger projects.

It just doesn't feel right to purchase a 2018 Mac mini (Intel) when the M1 chips are already out. Yes, I won't be able to upgrade to DP 10, but I guess at the end of the day it isn't that big of a deal. When DP becomes compatible with the M1 chips, I'll purchase an M1 mini

Thanks for all your help Mike.

Best,
David.

[mikehalloran]

Glad to help.

SATA III SSDs are cheap and you will see a major boost in boot and write to disk times. If it’s been over five years, replace the NV RAM battery. No need to order a high-heat BR2032; a CR2032 is fine.

I would update DP to 7.24. Besides making it Lion compatible, it fixed a number of bugs.

[HCMarkus]

Returning for a moment to the Mac Pro 5,1 consideration...

You can get a 4,1 Mac Pro quad for under $300, flash it to 5,1 firmware and drop in a Xeon X5680 for $40. Such a machine will run circles around your 1,1. If you go this route, you can take the machine as far as Mac OS 10.14.6 if you add a Metal-compatible GPU.

Just a thought.

If your 1,1 will do the job, that is by far the simplest route. An SSD will make that old Pro feel like a new machine! IIRC, there are two "secret" SATA2 ports on the motherboard. Or you can use a SATA carrier to use one of the existing bays (or simply insert the SSD into the port and let it hang there) or add a SATA3 PCIe card for a bit over $10.

And Mike's suggestion of a new battery ain't a bad idea.

Like many, I am pretty excited about Apple Silicon at this point. The future looks bright!

[mikehalloran]

Returning for a moment to the Mac Pro 5,1 consideration...

You can get a 4,1 Mac Pro quad for under $300, flash it to 5,1 firmware and drop in a Xeon X5680 for $40. Such a machine will run circles around your 1,1. If you go this route, you can take the machine as far as Mac OS 10.14.6 if you add a Metal-compatible GPU.

Just a thought.

If your 1,1 will do the job, that is by far the simplest route. An SSD will make that old Pro feel like a new machine! IIRC, there are two "secret" SATA2 ports on the motherboard. Or you can use a SATA carrier to use one of the existing bays (or simply insert the SSD into the port and let it hang there) or add a SATA3 PCIe card for a bit over $10.

And Mike's suggestion of a new battery ain't a bad idea.

Like many, I am pretty excited about Apple Silicon at this point. The future looks bright!

Agreed. SATA III doubles the bus speed over SATA II. I forgot that upgrade is so inexpensive.

[phaser74]

First of all… thanks for everyone’s input thus far

I found a Mac pro 4,1 with a 3.33 GHz 8-core CPU, 16 GB RAM, and a 512 SSD drive. I haven’t purchased it yet but am strongly considering it. Please remember that I only need an interim computer as I plan on buying a M1-powered mac in the relatively near future. That said, I think this particular Mac pro 4,1 will give me a considerable performance boost from my Mac pro 1,1. I don’t plan on flashing the 4,1 to 5,1 but may consider doing that in the future.

Based on my research, the Mac pro 4,1 running OS 10.11.6 El Capitan should be fine for both DP 7 and DP 10. Probably DP 10 would run more efficiently on a newer OS, but 10.11.6 is the highest I can go w/o flashing the 4,1. Also, my 828mk3 FW device should be fine with OS 10.11.6 El Capitan.

Perhaps there are better options instead of getting the 4,1, but at this point I’m just posting here to ask if I’m overlooking anything before I purchase the 4,1... theoretically, everything should be compatible and run fine, correct? And once I get DP 10 running on the Mac pro 4,1, I should be able to open the older DP 7 projects using DP 10?

Thank you,
David

[phaser74]

Ok, I’m going to purchase a Mac pro 5,1 with the following specs:
• 3.46GHz 6-Core Xeon
• 16 GB RAM
• 500 GB SSD

I will be upgrading from DP 7 to DP 10.

From my research, DP 10 works fine on High Sierra or Mojave with an 828mk3. That said, is it worth spending a little more money and getting a Metal-compatible card so that I can run Mojave or is running High Sierra good enough. Either way, I think this machine will have more than enough performance power for what I do and I’ll probably be using it until it no longer works, or it makes sense to get an Apple silicon machine. Just wondering if Mojave would be more advantageous/beneficial in some way?

Thanks, David.

[pencilina]

FWIW, upgrading my 5,1 12 core 2.67 (PCI SSDs, Metal card) mac pro to Mojave was the beginning of the end. Upgrading from 9 to 10 was the nail in the coffin. I like to mix with a lot of plugins. DP 10 was SLOW even with a 2048 buffer and SSDs. I can't believe I worked for months with very sluggish redraws. I used DP 7 through 9 for years without major issues. I think If you can resist Mojave and DP 10 until Apple Silicon is rocking you'll be a very happy camper with the 5,1. Also installing upgrades with the metal card and no info while booting was not fun.

[mikehalloran]

DP 9.52 is optimized to run over High Sierra or later with 50% or better lower buffer settings. I'm one of those who will never go back to it, now that I'm used to DP 10. You can't buy DP 9 but there are those who've asked MOTU for a DP 9 key code after buying DP 10 without a problem. Your Serial# remains the same as your earliest version (DP 2.x in my case).

That $10 SATA III card mentioned earlier doubles the I/O performance of any SATA III SSD attached to it. I don't have a link.

The 2TB Crucial MX500 is $189 at Amazon — best bang for the $ at the moment. If you need space for VIs etc. … A $20 USB3 dock will let you connect it to whatever Apple is going to make for a long time. Mo hurry if you don't need the additional space.

Your 828mk3 will work over Mojave and backward. If you do the Catalina hack, that too. It's even Big Sur ready (except loopback, maybe — waiting on drivers). When/if Apple Silicon ready is an unknown.

[phaser74]

Just wondering... if I were to purchase a mac mini (intel, not M1) directly from apple, what OS would it ship with?

I actually chatted with an Apple representative, and he told me that it could ship with either Catalina or Big Sur. Can anyone give me a more concrete answer? I've always preferred buying new machines directly from Apple, but I wouldn't want Big Sur to ship with it. I think Catalina should be fine for everything that I'll be using.

[HCMarkus]

FWIW, upgrading my 5,1 12 core 2.67 (PCI SSDs, Metal card) mac pro to Mojave was the beginning of the end. Upgrading from 9 to 10 was the nail in the coffin. I like to mix with a lot of plugins. DP 10 was SLOW even with a 2048 buffer and SSDs. I can't believe I worked for months with very sluggish redraws. I used DP 7 through 9 for years without major issues. I think If you can resist Mojave and DP 10 until Apple Silicon is rocking you'll be a very happy camper with the 5,1. Also installing upgrades with the metal card and no info while booting was not fun.

With all respect, not my experience. See my sig below. DP10.13 under Mojave is working great! I do a lot of work with VIs, and am really enjoying the performance I'm getting.

I actually saw tremendous improvement in screen redraws with my Gigabyte RX460 GPU when I moved from Sierra to Mojave. (I skipped High Sierra; running the RX460 under Sierra required a DV to HDMI converter to get 4k 60Hz to monitor. Drivers improved a lot in Mojave.)

But yes, phaser74, the 5,1 should be pretty darn awesome compared to your 1,1. And, if you have a spare drive available, you can compare performance under different versions of macOS. Maybe High Sierra will be better than Mojave...

One other thing: Unless it's being sold as a 2009, make sure that 5,1 with a W5690 or X5690 is not a 2009 4,1 that has been flashed to 5,1 status. No Mac Pro shipped with the 5690 CPU as a stock item. Functionally, no difference between years, but a 2009 has components (capacitors!) that are a year or more older than those in a 2010 or 2012. You should pay less for a 2009.

[mikehalloran]

Just wondering... if I were to purchase a mac mini (intel, not M1) directly from apple, what OS would it ship with?

I actually chatted with an Apple representative, and he told me that it could ship with either Catalina or Big Sur. Can anyone give me a more concrete answer? I've always preferred buying new machines directly from Apple, but I wouldn't want Big Sur to ship with it. I think Catalina should be fine for everything that I'll be using.

A 2018 Intel Mini can ship with Mojave, Catalina or Big Sur. I don’t know of a firmware issue that would prevent it from running any of those three MacOS. The T2 chip requires the Security settings to be changed to allow it to be booted from an external drive such as a USB stick with an older MacOS installer.