Digital Performer 5 is AWSOME!

qwerty · Post by **qwerty** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 8:24 pm

dbudde wrote:Haven't seen this answered yet, but Magic Dave said DP5 is due this quarter, and universal binaries are due next quarter. No discussion on pricing.

Interesting. So I guess if I was going to upgrade my MacDinosaur, it chouldn't possibly be until at least the 3rd quarter IF all the other predictions are on time. Oh well!

Tobor · Post by **Tobor** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 8:59 pm

Mastermix wrote:

It is very likely that your computer is underpowered.

An 800MHz iMac with 512 Meg RAM is more like a recipe
for diasaster. I doubt DP4.x will run properly on your
computer. Try a faster machine if you can.

Kris...

Thanks for weighing in, Kris, you're another very helpful voice on this forum. Yes, I realize my computer is underpowered. I plan on upgrading to a new one in a month or so (which is another confusing issue- DP 5 may not be ready to play with the Intel Macs for awhile, etc.).

And I could easily believe that my computer is the primary source of my frustration, except:

1. I'm only using DP for MIDI sequencing- no audio- no plugs- as I'm slaving it to a Roland VS2480.

2. This same machine has worked (and still works) flawlessly in this manner when I reboot in 9.2.2 and use DP 3.1.1 (my 'secret weapon'

), capable of large sequences and rapier-quick editing.

3. Others with the latest machines and latest OS have experienced the same or similar problems. I believe 'markwayne' in a prior post summed it up much more coherently than I.

4. Magic Dave was able to duplicate my midiclock sync problem (which I believe is related to all this trouble) a couple months ago and told me they'd try to fix it in the next upgrade.

At this point I have to apologize as this thread has turned away from how DP 5 is awesome, which I'm sure it is. In fact, DP is so awesome that most of us can use it in slightly or greatly different ways to accomplish our goals. I applaud them for trying to stay ahead of the pack with new features. Yet sometimes a feature long taken for granted ceases to work properly and you have to jump up and down to get their attention.

The midiclock sync issue is an acknowledged bug that I think is related to many of these other MIDI problems and I'd like to see it finally fixed.

Then I can look forward to my new computer and the exciting new features in DP5.

Tobor

pcm · Post by **pcm** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 9:01 pm

I've said many times that one of the issues with DP is that motu doesn't issue any real guidelines as to what does and doesn't work, like the way Digidesign does. They leave you on your own, and if you've hit on a winning combination, life is good. Digidesign says, "use this, DON'T use that". If people have issues, they can go to the DUC, and get answers right from the horses mouth. What do we motu users have? Nada. Use whatever you want. This is the reason you see such a diparity of success rates here, because we are on our own. Well, there are other reasons too, and that is that the software is always in some state of being half-baked. How half-baked it is for you depends on your system and uage thereof, but that brings us around to what I stated above. We have no support. Yes you can call tech support, and while I think those guys are dedicated, they have rarely made any of my problems go away.

Now, I am the guy that all my friends call when their Macs have issues, 'cause I'm REAL good at making machines behave. But except for a six-week stint with 4.12, I haven't been willing to bet my life on a trouble-free DP session since 2.7. Yes, I'm serious. I run a pro room, and probably beat DP way harder than most of you do. Everyday, all day. And when I'm not doing it, my engineers are. Plus, I have two rooms, both with DP, and then there's my powerbook. So, I have logged many thousands of hours over the last six years. But I can't make it trouble free. The issues list is lengthy, and they rarely get fixed. I also have Pro Tools HD, which has yet to crash on me a single time. Not one freakin' time. Do I have issues with the state of DP. Yes I do, and I have earned my right to complain about it. DP tanks in front of clients all the time. My engineers now flatly refuse to use it, and as of about a month ago, PT is now my weapon of choice, I am officially out of the DP camp, mainly because I just cannot trust it to not quit on me when the going gets rough. Yes I push it hard, but I need what I need, and nothing less. I believe DP needs to be re-written from the ground up, too many people have issues, me being one of them. PT costs ten times more, but it's more than ten times better. It WORKS. I can stake my life on it. Short of throwing the mac out the window, it is not going to go down on me. There's a reason why it has the market share that it does. Run a PT HD system for a week, and you can never go back. There are many reasons why, but for me a main one is stability. Until motu gets their priorities straight, they will never make real inroads into the pro market, for the afore mentioned reasons. DP5? If the core issues aren't fixed, then it's hobby software as far as I'm concerned. Although I still import vocal tracks into it for pitch correction, they really did get that right. But I ain't using it in front of clients anymore, I have too much at stake.

Yes, there are some of you who have no issues whatsoever, and are wondering if I'm on crack. I don't have an explanation for you. I just know that I'm real good with machines, and all my software is rock solid, except for DP. Many machines over the years, many versions, etc. The pattern is pretty clear to me.

Sorry for the rant, but it's been a "hard breakup" for me, and to see motu put out a new release without any mention of these types of things just kills me. Make it fast and reliable, that should be job #1.

Shooshie · Post by **Shooshie** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 10:35 pm

Guys, let me try to bring everyone together with a short little story. One of the people I work with is a fantastic pianist in Las Vegas. Probably the best in the business. Russian immigrant, super musician, conservatory trained, turned to pop in America to make his living. Ok... we have projects we do together. I'm his MIDI arranger/recording engineer. So, I fly out there and work for a few months with him, then he will work with the exact same files after I leave, sometimes tweaking the velocities in his own parts in our arrangements.

Ok... see what's going on? Two people working on the exact same files, on the exact same computer. I do amazing things on that computer in DP. I push it for all it's got, and I set up some pretty heavy loads for it. It never crashes. Ever. (I never seem to crash DP. Like Chrispick, when I'm sitting at DP, it just seems to like me)

I board the plane for Dallas, and my dear friend starts working on his parts, alone. By the time I get home I can almost always be sure there will be a message for me. Computer crashed. MTP-AV stopped working. Digital Performer won't boot up because of a crash on startup. Or he can't save his work because it's crashing. Amazing as it sounds, we're working with the same files on the same computer. I leave him with an exact set of files to work with. I go back out there, and he demonstrates it for me. It crashes. Just like he said. Then I sit down and try to troubleshoot it, and it doesn't crash.

I can't figure out what he is doing, and he can't figure out what I'm doing, but after 15 years of this, we have come to accept that DP has a soul, and that it chooses to work for me and crash for him.

That's not to say that he gets nothing done; just that he experiences problems that just don't seem to happen when I'm there, and they're very real.

I swear this story is true. If you ever go to Las Vegas, go the Petrossian Lounge in the Bellagio Hotel and ask the pianist, Ariel, to sit and talk to you about Digital Performer. Just ask him about this. He'll tell you the same story. And he'll play you some great music and tell you some great tales about his life and about the work we've done together. (be nice to him... he's got a lot of people to please)

So, you can see that if this kind of thing happens between him and me using the same darned computer, imagine the differences in people's setups out there, not to mention their styles of working. So, don't be too quick to judge another when hearing their stories about DP. It just doesn't always do the same thing for different people.

Shooshie

YouTube · Post by **James Steele** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 10:43 pm

Well, I just got back from NAMM. I only now got to read this thread and I'm disappointed to find that I can always count on some people on the board to turn a thread about an amazing upgrade into a negative... It seems DP will never be fast enough, reliable enough, etc... MOTU just can't get any credit for doing anything right.

As for the DP 5.0 features... they're pretty impressive.

Track Folders... yep this is very cool. You can also nest folders and track folders aren't just in the Track Overview but in the Sequence Editor as well.

Also there are tape style input monitor modes on the channel strip.

There's a meter bridge view that allows you to monitor audio levels on inputs, outputs, busses... etc. all in on view

New editing tools... Roll Edit, Slip Edit and Slide Edit.

Sound bite volume info... you can draw volume on the soundbite and have it be part of the soundbite. Also you can set gain info for a soundbite.

Lots of film scoring facilities... streamers, punches, flutters... visual clicks which can all be superimposed on video via hardware boxes (including DTP, VTP) or you can export a QT from DP which will have all this superimposed. DP is shoring up their lead in the video/film composer world.

Let's see... VIs.... I'm trying to do this from memory...

NANOSAMPLER... a basic sampler plug in that allows you to quickly drop soudbites onto it and trigger sounds via keyboard

POLSYNTH. This is really cool to me. It's basically based on the Roland synths that used DCOs... like the Juno series. Reminds of my JX-3P and controls look like the Roland. I can finally get some of those analog type pads in a plug-in and get rid of my JX-3P.

MODULO. It's a more complex synth VI.

BASSLINE... don't remember the name on this either but it's a cool 2 oscilator mono synth that sounds very Moog-like. You can detune oscilators and get some cool bass synth sounds.

Proton... It's an FM synth plug... cool sounds etc.

MODEL 12. A drum sampler plug-in...

Also MIDI-keys window where can play MIDI notes using the QWERTY keyboard. Cool for playing parts on a laptop where you don't have a keyboard at the ready.

Probably, more that I can't remember... oh yeah, PCI Express confirmed and an annoucement as to time frame probably in next couple of weeks. DP 5.0 is supposed be out in first quarter 2006 and MacIntel support by 2nd quarter.

Any way, it looks like a tremendous upgrade and I'm really eager to get it.

soundsun · Post by **soundsun** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 10:46 pm

pcm wrote:I've said many times that one of the issues with DP is that motu doesn't issue any real guidelines as to what does and doesn't work, like the way Digidesign does. They leave you on your own, and if you've hit on a winning combination, life is good.

I'm looking at the Digital Performer Update Notes PDF (located in the same folder as the DP 4.6 app) and it says on the first page what the minimum requirements are for DP. Now, that's not to say that it's as extensive as Digidesign's testing but it's not "use what every you want". And BTW, my Mbox/PT combo drops out of record when it feels like it every now-and-again so it's not like PT is trouble free... And yes, it's being run on a Digi approved system.

qo · Post by qo » Sat Jan 21, 2006 10:49 pm

I can't figure out what he is doing, and he can't figure out what I'm doing, but after 15 years of this, we have come to accept that DP has a soul, and that it chooses to work for me and crash for him.

Everyone has a different aura / energy field they radiate. My aura is a disaster, so I play it safe and stash the G5 in a room 30 feet away from me

Shooshie · Post by **Shooshie** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 10:55 pm

soundsun wrote:
pcm wrote:I've said many times that one of the issues with DP is that motu doesn't issue any real guidelines as to what does and doesn't work, like the way Digidesign does. They leave you on your own, and if you've hit on a winning combination, life is good.
I'm looking at the Digital Performer Update Notes PDF (located in the same folder as the DP 4.6 app) and it says on the first page what the minimum requirements are for DP. Now, that's not to say that it's as extensive as Digidesign's testing but it's not "use what every you want". And BTW, my Mbox/PT combo drops out of record when it feels like it every now-and-again so it's not like PT is trouble free... And yes, it's being run on a Digi approved system.

Exactly. I hear stories like this about PT all the time. In fact, I find it almost unbelievable that pcm has trouble-free operation of PT, but like my experience with DP, I can accept that he may just know how to keep it from crashing. I've been to PT demos by a guy who works for Digidesign and travels with a sophisticated system doing these demos at places like Guitar Center or universities, and even with the files he uses every day, I've seen him crash multiple times in the middle of a demo with a well-tested PT system.

There's just an element of chance in this. Some people get the Vegas odds, and others get the New Orleans odds. Whatever that means.

Shooshie

waterstrum · Post by **waterstrum** » Sun Jan 22, 2006 1:25 am

Yeah, I just played a session in a very high priced ProTools studio.
They had one big crash and numerous weird problems.
It was much less stable than my DP rig.

It might have been a bad day, etc....
I don't think any software is crash-free.
There are too many variables.

pcm · Post by **pcm** » Sun Jan 22, 2006 4:35 am

soundsun wrote:
pcm wrote:I've said many times that one of the issues with DP is that motu doesn't issue any real guidelines as to what does and doesn't work, like the way Digidesign does. They leave you on your own, and if you've hit on a winning combination, life is good.
I'm looking at the Digital Performer Update Notes PDF (located in the same folder as the DP 4.6 app) and it says on the first page what the minimum requirements are for DP. Now, that's not to say that it's as extensive as Digidesign's testing but it's not "use what every you want". And BTW, my Mbox/PT combo drops out of record when it feels like it every now-and-again so it's not like PT is trouble free... And yes, it's being run on a Digi approved system.

Well, I wasn't talking about the mbox or PTLE. I'm talking about PTHD, which costs quite a bit more.

The problem with the mbox is that it's usb 1.1. It's amazing that it works at all. And of course no version of PT will work well at all if you stray from their guidelines. But when you get it right, you can stake your life on it. Other than stating minimum requirements, I don't feel motu has any guidelines at all. They don't have their own board, they don't acknowledge bugs, fixes are long in coming, if they come at all, and they rarely if ever communicate with their user base. Go to Digi's site, and check out the User Conference. It's a whole different style of doing things, and the software shows it. Seriously, go see for yourself. Issue that users report are responded to, and bug fix releases are generated on a regular basis. They have release numbers like PT 6.9cs2, or PT 6.9cs4. The "cs" stands for "customer service". It's a professional organization for professional users. Stuff gets acknowledged, and stuff gets fixed. For all of you who use DP trouble-free, you're golden, but what of the rest of us? Where's the support? Other than calling them up, there is none. The tech guys are very nice and helpful, but talking to them has never resulted in an issue-free system for me.

Let me stray back on topic. I will continue to update DP, if for it's fantastic pitch correction if nothing else. But if I don't see some kind of serious optimization, it's gonna see limited use in my world. It's great that all these new features are there, but if the reliability isn't, then I can't use it in a professional envirionment. Granted, I push it very hard, but I need what I need. I don't do this as a hobby.

alpha · Post by **alpha** » Sun Jan 22, 2006 5:05 am

So does anyone know what bugs HAVE been fixed?

soundsun · Post by **soundsun** » Sun Jan 22, 2006 6:22 am

pcm wrote: Well, I wasn't talking about the mbox or PTLE. I'm talking about PTHD, which costs quite a bit more. The problem with the mbox is that it's usb 1.1. It's amazing that it works at all.

And yet Digi's new MBox 2 continues to be a USB 1.1 device. So I don't think it's as simple as that.

pcm wrote:They don't have their own board, they don't acknowledge bugs, fixes are long in coming, if they come at all, and they rarely if ever communicate with their user base. Go to Digi's site, and check out the User Conference.

I've spent time on the DUC. Not everyone is happy there. And this board plus the mailing list are a great resources for support. In fact, I think that it's a plus that this board being independent of MOTU.

pcm wrote: Granted, I push it very hard, but I need what I need. I don't do this as a hobby.

Well, just to let you know, we have a lab of 25 Macs and two studios running DP so we too, push it "pretty hard".

Sergievsky · Post by **Sergievsky** » Sun Jan 22, 2006 6:35 am

James Steele wrote: Track Folders...

Also there are tape style input monitor modes on the channel strip.

There's a meter bridge view that allows you to monitor audio levels on inputs, outputs, busses... etc. all in on view

New editing tools... Roll Edit, Slip Edit and Slide Edit.

Sound bite volume info... you can draw volume on the soundbite and have it be part of the soundbite. Also you can set gain info for a soundbite.

Lots of film scoring facilities... streamers, punches, flutters... visual clicks which can all be superimposed on video via hardware boxes (including DTP, VTP) or you can export a QT from DP which will have all this superimposed. DP is shoring up their lead in the video/film composer world...

These are extremely useful to me. I might ditch PT for good. But I do hope for better stability. Still, it's great that they're pushing the program to compete with Logic and PT and the PC heavyweights.

Man...I remember struggling with StudioVision's two tracks with my SoundtoolsII/mac Quadra 700 hardware, then adding DP because they squeezed a whopping 4 tracks out of the same hardware... so me, I am NOT about to complain about ANYTHING.
Thanks for the continued developments motu.

Splinter · Post by **Splinter** » Sun Jan 22, 2006 7:57 am

chrispick wrote:
OldDog wrote:I've never used any software that didn't crash from time to time. DP crashes from time to time, not just for one or two, but everyone... except you. It doesn't make the rest of us idiots and you don't need to be so condescending about it either.
Well, I did apologize for that. You're right; my language in that post was too harsh.

Chris:

Sorry, I didn't see your response before I posted. Seemed like you were just trolling.

My point was you're the odd man out if you have NO issues with DP. I'm a power user. A professional. I have a Dual 1.8 with 2.5GB RAM. 2 SATA drives and a 15K SCSI Glyph with an ATTO 320Mb/sec SCSI PCI-X card. I use DP everyday. I routinely repair permissions, run Disk Warrrior, and keep my machine dedicated for audio and not for home use.

DP crashes... period. Granted it's more stable than it has been in a long time, but it has bugs. I got 2 unexpected quits yesterday when I selected the "Bounce to Disk Again" feature from the Audio menu. Didn't do it every time, but twice. That's a bug. It wasn't something I did. DP still has CPU spikes. Not like they were in 4.5, but occasionally it hits the red and... BOOM! Unexpected quit.

I'm not ripping on DP. I love it. I wouldn't use anything else. So, don't take my comments personally. I'm with you, I just would like to see MOTU get some work done under the hood more than add more bells and whistles. I realize they need to do it to stay afloat, but maybe for a half a year they need to contract out additional programmers to tidey up DPs code. It isn't flawless. As one person here noted, Magic Dave got pretty miffed at NAMM when DP crashed during his demo.

Splinter · Post by **Splinter** » Sun Jan 22, 2006 8:05 am

Tobor wrote:This same machine has worked (and still works) flawlessly in this manner when I reboot in 9.2.2 and use DP 3.1.1 (my 'secret weapon' ), capable of large sequences and rapier-quick editing.

There you go. 3.11 wasn't flawless either (crashed on BTD and COQ), but a solid workhorse.

I ran into a similar problem with sync when locked to MTC. Completely would not stay in sync. Same computer, same hardware, DP 4.5x. 4.12 worked like a charm. 4.61 now works like a charm, but DP4.5x had a bug. It wasn't me or my set up... nothing changed but the software.