Shuffle Mode (ala Protools)

newsound · Post by **newsound** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 7:42 pm

Hello all,

While this is my first post, I am in no way a new user of DP (I've been using it since vers 1.4). (And still have the original manual and floppy discs to prove it!)

Over the years I have mainly used DP to compose music for theater and films (using mostly MIDI, and now VI plugins), and for doing sound effects for theater.

More and more I find myself using DP to do audio editing for video and radio production (something that I have always used Pro Tools for in the studios that I have worked in), and I am finding one very disturbing lack in DP's tools set; that being Pro Tools "Shuffle" mode, especially when doing edge edits.

To add a little extra info: In Pro Tools, if I select Shuffle mode and edit enable several tracks, I can then use the edge editor (the [ icon) to trim away the beginning of a soundbite and all of the other tracks as well (keeping them in sync). I can approximate this in DP by using the Snip command, but the problem comes in when I want to ADD some time to the begining of a soundbite (for timing purposes in a VO, etc). In Pro Tools I can just drag the edge edit back (to the left) and everything moves in sync. I have yet to find an easy way to do that in Digital Performer.

For those of you who have done VO on PT, I am sure you will understand what I am talking about. For those of you who haven't, please ask questions and I will try to clarify what I am looking for.

Don't get me wrong, I love DP for a lot of reasons, but this is the single thing that keeps me from ditching Pro Tools altogether. (and advising my client studios to do so.)

FWIW - I am still on DP 4.1.2 - if the more recent versions offer this, I've obviously missed it in the upgrade FAQ

Thanks for any help you can offer

BobK · Post by **BobK** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 8:00 pm

Group the tracks you want to edit (for Track Grouping, see the chapter on Mixing in the User Guide).

Then it should be easy to edge-edit them (see 'Edge Editing Soundbites' in the 'Sequence Editor' chapter).

Hope this helps.

newsound · Post by **newsound** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 8:38 pm

Thanks Bob for the quick reply.

I've tried that over and over again, but using the edge edit (even with the grouped tracks) won't allow me to ADD material to the leading edge (i.e. trim/drag to the left) of one soundbite and have all of the other grouped tracks move in sync when there is no material on that track at that edit point.

Maybe I'm still not explaining my issue well enough?

soundsun · Post by **soundsun** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 9:24 pm

I hope there's a solution to this too since I would love to ditch PT. I do a fair amount of classical editing and use shuffle a lot. It's a quick way of adjusting the time between to regions (or "soundbites" in DP lingo). I'm not saying that it's the only way to do it but I haven't found the equivalent in DP yet.

--Phil

pcm · Post by **pcm** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 10:12 pm

soundsun wrote:I hope there's a solution to this too since I would love to ditch PT. I do a fair amount of classical editing and use shuffle a lot. It's a quick way of adjusting the time between to regions (or "soundbites" in DP lingo). I'm not saying that it's the only way to do it but I haven't found the equivalent in DP yet.

--Phil

Nope, can't be done. I use both programs as well. And here's another lacking (edge-editing) feature. In DP, you can time stretch audio files by dragging the ends. But you can't do that with GROUPS. If you want to stretch a drums group, for example, you have to stretch them one by one, and hope you are stretching them all by the same amount, or else risk phasing issues. In PT, you can.

BobK · Post by **BobK** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 10:48 pm

Oh, now I get it. You want to add material to the beginning of the parent audio file.

I haven't done VO, so I don't know what 'timing purposes in VO' means. If you don't mind explaining, curious minds want to know why you want to do this.

You probably already know that as a work-around you could record some silence before the later soundbite and then merge the two. It's obviously not as easy as edge-editing, but it may be better than nothing. Of course, if you're talking about seconds or fractions thereof, then this would be a pain.

Splinter · Post by **Splinter** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 12:33 am

Why not just move the soundbites where you want them, leave the gaps, and merge them to one file when you are finished? If you want to keep the edited version for later revisions, Duplicate the take, them merge.

a_real_mf · Post by **a_real_mf** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 4:25 am

i didn't read the post right....nevermind........

newsound · Post by **newsound** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 6:39 am

BobK wrote:Oh, now I get it. You want to add material to the beginning of the parent audio file.

I haven't done VO, so I don't know what 'timing purposes in VO' means. If you don't mind explaining, curious minds want to know why you want to do this.

Ok, here's a "real world" example. The project is a corporate communication piece. Track 1 has the VO (Voice Over), Track 2 has Interview audio. Track 3 has stereo music drops under the Interview pieces.

The piece is done, when the client says that 2 lines in the VO have to go, because the product that they refer to isn't ready. No problem - turn groups on, hilight the area to cut out and "SNIP" (in DP). The lines are cut out and everything downstream (later in time) moves up and stays in sync. Back up a few seconds and play it back. Woops! The VO timing is wrong - I cut out a little too much, and now it sounds unatural.

And here is where the problem (in DP) comes in. In Pro Tools, I would simply go into shuffle mode, and edge edit to add a bit more air to the incoming VO bite, and it and everything else downstream moves further downstream, still in sync, sort of like a ripple edit in a video editing program. Playback and now it sounds great. 1 keystroke and one mouse drag.

In DP, the only way I have found to do this is to select all the remaining sound bites on all tracks, and then nudge them until the timing is right (hoping that I don't miss a bite!), and then edge edit on the VO track to bring back in the room tone. Or undo the edit and try it again - the "trial and error" method.

There are a lot of other reasons that one might use the edge edit in shuffle mode as well, but hopefully the above example explains the challenge.

If anybody has a more effecient way to do this, I would love to hear it.

Thanks

giles117 · Post by **giles117** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 7:47 am

Much better explanation. Not sure if DP would do that....

Call MOTU and speak to a tech.....

They are very helpful

BobK · Post by **BobK** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 8:21 am

Thanks for the explanation, newsound.

Let's see if I understand: say your region starts at 10 seconds into the piece and lasts for 15 seconds. You want to add another 2 seconds of air to the start of the region, but still have it start at the 10 second mark. You drag the left edge of the soundbite to the left for 2 seconds. When you stop dragging, it snaps to the original start point, moving the existing audio 2 seconds later. Is that it? (I hope I'm not being a pain here - just want to understand what's going on.)

newsound · Post by **newsound** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 8:34 am

BobK wrote:Thanks for the explanation, newsound.

Let's see if I understand: say your region starts at 10 seconds into the piece and lasts for 15 seconds. You want to add another 2 seconds of air to the start of the region, but still have it start at the 10 second mark. You drag the left edge of the soundbite to the left for 2 seconds. When you stop dragging, it snaps to the original start point, moving the existing audio 2 seconds later. Is that it? (I hope I'm not being a pain here - just want to understand what's going on.)

Yep, that's basically it. Of course since I have the groups turned on all of the audio in the other tracks moves the same 2 seconds later to maintain relative sync.

Hope that helps,
El

newsound · Post by **newsound** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 8:36 am

giles117 wrote:Much better explanation. Not sure if DP would do that....

Call MOTU and speak to a tech.....

They are very helpful

Thanks.

Unfortunately I never seem to be able to get through to tech on the phone, and my last e-mail to tech support took 3 weeks to get a reply! Admittidly, the last time I tried was a long time ago, so maybe I should give it another shot.

El

giles117 · Post by **giles117** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 8:46 am

Try again. I have had good fortune getting in touch with them.

Namm show week might be a tad tuff.

Fibes · Post by **Fibes** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 12:49 pm

Currently you can't do it.

It's been on my list for years and i'm hoping DP5 will go there.

Splicing in room tone is the only way to do what you ask (without a PITA) but only if you have all mono or stereo tracks. And yes it's still not as good as shuffle mode in PT.

Let's keep our fingers crossed.