NAMM NEWS - DP 10 - It's Here!

[bayswater]

utomation mess we've always had when cutting, pasting and snipping tracks with automation (the god-damned unwanted and idiotic ramps).

It's very likely IMO this has been fixed in 10, because they have brought at least four new things to MIDI, note names, note velocity, and quantized CC data with notes, as well as absolute snap to grid.

What's odd about the description is that it says CC moves with quantized events (notes?) So what happens if quantization is not applied? Or could you quantize at zero %?

And how does snap to grid work here? Do automation events close to a grid location go to the grid thereby moving relative to a note, or are they always linked to the note or audio event?

[FMiguelez]

I hear you pain, FM. I truly do. It simply has never, ever, been an issue. Clearly, we work very differently.

Thanks for understanding, even if you don't suffer from that issue yourself.

I know we've talked about this a few times, but I think that the difference you mentioned between how you and I work is more about the nature of our gigs (and the techniques needed to accomplish them) than composing workflow.

I mean, we both compose our music... but then, you "just" lift your baton for some of the best performers/orchestras in the planet and let the magic happen... I, OTOH, have to spend countless hours trying to imitate that magic with damned virtual instruments trying my best to make them come alive and not sound plastic

I'll switch gigs with you anytime you want, my friend

[Michael Canavan]

utomation mess we've always had when cutting, pasting and snipping tracks with automation (the god-damned unwanted and idiotic ramps).

It's very likely IMO this has been fixed in 10, because they have brought at least four new things to MIDI, note names, note velocity, and quantized CC data with notes, as well as absolute snap to grid.

What's odd about the description is that it says CC moves with quantized events (notes?) So what happens if quantization is not applied? Or could you quantize at zero %?

And how does snap to grid work here? Do automation events close to a grid location go to the grid thereby moving relative to a note, or are they always linked to the note or audio event?

I think they're talking about CC messages created with the notes. So say you play in a line and use the mod wheel at the same time to ramp a filter etc. When the MIDI gets quantized in DP as it stands apparently the CC date wasn't getting quantized, so now it is, so the quantization in my example won't change in relation to the note.

[dix]

And how does snap to grid work here? Do automation events close to a grid location go to the grid thereby moving relative to a note, or are they always linked to the note or audio event?

I think they're talking about CC messages created with the notes. So say you play in a line and use the mod wheel at the same time to ramp a filter etc. When the MIDI gets quantized in DP as it stands apparently the CC date wasn't getting quantized, so now it is, so the quantization in my example won't change in relation to the note.

Quantized to what though? CC resolution is a lot finer than, say, quarter notes, half or whole notes. Is that what the panel in this pic of the new CC data moves with quantized notes feature is addressing? ...which does have a Move Controllers and Automation box. Could that possibly help what FM is talking about?

[bayswater]

What's odd about the description is that it says CC moves with quantized events (notes?) So what happens if quantization is not applied? Or could you quantize at zero %?

And how does snap to grid work here? Do automation events close to a grid location go to the grid thereby moving relative to a note, or are they always linked to the note or audio event?

I think they're talking about CC messages created with the notes. So say you play in a line and use the mod wheel at the same time to ramp a filter etc. When the MIDI gets quantized in DP as it stands apparently the CC date wasn't getting quantized, so now it is, so the quantization in my example won't change in relation to the note.

I suppose that would be it, but that suggests DP has defined some way of linking CC messages to specific notes. Otherwise they are unrelated other than being on the same channel and roughly at the same time. Seems arbitrary and subject to confusion.

[Michael Canavan]

Quantized to what though? CC resolution is a lot finer than, say, quarter notes, half or whole notes. Is that what the panel in this pic of the new CC data moves with quantized notes feature is addressing? ...which does have a Move Controllers and Automation box. Could that possibly help what FM is talking about?

Good catch on the new Move Controllers and Automation box. I don't know? Looks like we have a couple weeks to find out, both FM and Toodammedhip have complained about this CC mess for quite some time though, and I would guess they're aware of it. It just seems like work went into CC data improvement, so why not fix the weird ramps that get created when you move data??

[MikeInBoston]

One thing that I'm excited about is that MOTU finally put the letter name of the notes on the notes themselves in the MIDI editor. Perhaps my suggestions to do so had some effect.

Mike

[OldTimey]

I've always found DP's handling of automation to be among it's clunkiest features. Those that haven't spent time in other DAW's working with automation have no idea what they are missing. It's a joy to automate in Pro Tools/Ableton Live. It just works. One detail I find absolutely ridiculous DP doesn't implment: on an audio track, why do I have to initialize volume/pan automation? Why do I have to go to the mixer, see where a track is set, and then 'pencil' that value in? Why isn't initial value just linked to the fader?

I'm very much hoping for improvements in this area, that with VCA faders may keep me out of mixing in PT for many projects.

[ccrane]

One detail I find absolutely ridiculous DP doesn't implment: on an audio track, why do I have to initialize volume/pan automation? Why do I have to go to the mixer, see where a track is set, and then 'pencil' that value in? Why isn't initial value just linked to the fader?

I hear you. When I need a track to follow an established Mixer setting, I’ll throw the track into automation record, and then click the fader or aux knob during playback. This writes an automation point that is the same value as what’s in the mixer. Having the Channel Strip always displayed makes this easy enough. I find this method faster than scutinizing the Mixer for a value and penciling it in into an automation lane.
-Chris

[Phil O]

One detail I find absolutely ridiculous DP doesn't implment: on an audio track, why do I have to initialize volume/pan automation? Why do I have to go to the mixer, see where a track is set, and then 'pencil' that value in? Why isn't initial value just linked to the fader?

I hear you. When I need a track to follow an established Mixer setting, I’ll throw the track into automation record, and then click the fader or aux knob during playback. This writes an automation point that is the same value as what’s in the mixer. Having the Channel Strip always displayed makes this easy enough. I find this method faster than scutinizing the Mixer for a value and penciling it in into an automation lane.
-Chris

What about Automation Snapshot?

[OldTimey]

I’ll throw the track into automation record, and then click the fader or aux knob during playback

Totally, when I remember to do it this way this works, better than penciling in initial value. Though I usually keep mixer detached from Consolidated Windows so it's one more step. But not a big deal.

What about Automation Snapshot?

I like snapshots in theory, but have never been able to get them to work as expected. Often end up with a lot of unwanted automation being written to track.

Neither of these two methods (though better than penciling in initial value) is as immediate as the way automation defaults in other DAWs. Not a showstopper as DP does so many other things well that I love. Just makes me prefer mixing in other programs. I usually sequence in DP and Ableton (via rewire to DP), print stems and mix in pro tools.

[FMiguelez]

What about Automation Snapshot?

I like snapshots in theory, but have never been able to get them to work as expected. Often end up with a lot of unwanted automation being written to track.

Ha! You just reminded me of that OTHER big automation bug, OldTimey. And you're totally correct.

What you mentioned is the main reason I try to use automation snapshot as little as possible.
It has never worked as intended, according to the manual and according to the choices we supposedly have for the snapshot properties.

The point is that, whatever you do, you end up with snapshots of EVERY plugin parameter instead of only the ones you allow in the Automation Setup box.

I agree. Automation, in any of its flavours, is easily DP's weakest point by far.

I am SO EXCITED about DP10 and its new features, that I hope I'm not placing too high an expectation on it and get disappointed.

This whole automation issues fix is SO important to me, that I would be willing to spend the $200 bucks (or whatever) even if DP10 consisted of NOTHING else except for a fix for ALL automation flavours.
Hell, I'd pay twice that amount for a definitive and elegant fix, even if DP10 didn't have ANY new features at all...

[OldTimey]

whatever you do, you end up with snapshots of EVERY plugin parameter instead of only the ones you allow in the Automation Setup box.

Right, this is what happens to me and why I don't use snapshots. Can work ok for volume/pan, but automating a plugin with snapshots is a total mess. I've tried everything but it doesn't work as advertised for me. So I gave up.

Still look forward to DP10, looks great.

[jloeb]

I was about to update to Live10 , I think I'll wait to hear about you guys how this Loop window feature works.
Just hope it's as easy as Live to record/process/assign.

Live duties only

Same here. Live is the only other DAW that I’ve kept up to date, mainly because the clip feature is such a unique workflow. Now this gives me one less reason to update my Live 9 Suite.

Yes, I'm curious, too. My initial hunch is that it'll be decent, but not as good.

1) The clip launch interval is global (1 measure, 2 measures, 4, etc). Live allows you to set this on a per-track basis. For example, you may want to trigger a drum loop variation every 2 bars, but you want to be able to trigger a one-shot on the next beat at any moment.

2) I don't see the ability to record and loop new clips while the whole scene is playing (i.e., the "LIVE" feature of Ableton Live). In the DP demos, they are taking existing, pre-recorded regions of audio and copying/pasting into the clips view.

3) I don't see a way to record a Clips Window performance as an arrangement.

So, given those assumptions (which may be wrong) it seems like a non-linear previewing engine more than anything else. I'm still excited to mess around with it.

I think the answers are positive to most if not all of these.

Starting with your point 2):
https://youtu.be/Apdg1ACEE1M

At 1:53 - yes, you can toggle to sequence editor and record something new via MIDI over the playback (with or without quantization enabled) and then copy/paste it into a cell.

I'd think this relates to 1) - because you can simply set up a VI track to trigger one shots over the rest of the playback whenever. Not the same formal method as Live, but i'm not sure how crucial having, say, a one-beat "queue" is in reality anyway -you're essentially triggering the part live and quantized at that resolution.

As for true polyrhythmic arranging with this window - I'm with you, it's not yet clear. What is the significance of dropping a 12 beat sequence into an 8 beat trigger interval Clips window? Depends on how it behaves when you re-queue the same clip that it reads as having, say, 1.5 the duration of the triggering interval - does it continue playback from where it left off, or retrigger? Are both an option?

3) Since these are linked to tracks (and, indeed, default back to the underlying track content at that point in the project absent queued material, which is interesting in itself), I don't see why you couldn't simply hit multi record and then go to town. If you want to be more methodical, then i presume you'd do it with saved Scenes and stack away.

4) How tightly is this integrated with POLAR and with Chunks? Big question....

[frankf]

What about Automation Snapshot?

I like snapshots in theory, but have never been able to get them to work as expected. Often end up with a lot of unwanted automation being written to track.

Ha! You just reminded me of that other BIG automation BUG, OldTimey. And you're totally correct.

What you mentioned is the main reason I try to use automation snapshot as little as possible.
It has never worked as intended, according to the manual and according to the choices we supposedly have for the snapshot properties.

The point is that, whatever you do, you end up with snapshots of EVERY plugin parameter instead of only the ones you allow in the Automation Setup box.

I agree. Automation, in any of its flavours, is easily DP's weakest point by far.

I am SO EXCITED about DP10 and its new features, that I hope I'm not placing too high an expectation on it and get disappointed.

This whole automation issues fix is SO important to me, that I would be willing to spend the $200 bucks (or whatever) even if DP10 consisted of NOTHING else except for a fix for ALL automation flavours.
Hell, I'd pay twice that amount for a definitive and elegant fix, even if DP10 didn't have ANY new features at all...

I use snapshots via key command all the time, especially at the start of a cue to copy fader and CC settings to tracks. Also, there are snapshot options so you don’t include “every plug in parameter”. Just saying


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