Community bug list, ya/nay?

[Robert Randolph]

So I've been reading the recent discussion(s) of bugs and I realized that Motu's lack of transparency with bugs and known issues makes it very difficult to have an objective discussion about the stability, performance and bugginess of DP.

I am willing to take the time to maintain a list of confirmed issues (by at least 2 members or myself) with documentation.

What do folks think of this idea? Any major downsides?

[Shooshie]

So I've been reading the recent discussion(s) of bugs and I realized that Motu's lack of transparency with bugs and known issues makes it very difficult to have an objective discussion about the stability, performance and bugginess of DP.

I am willing to take the time to maintain a list of confirmed issues (by at least 2 members or myself) with documentation.

What do folks think of this idea? Any major downsides?

The only downside is discussion. The utility of a thread like this is hampered by long stretches of what boils down to arguments. If you want to maintain the thread, I'll help by moving arguments into another thread, or deleting them entirely, which might send a stronger signal to self-police against using this thread for arguments in the first place.

And I'm just offering. We should do what we can agree would be most productive. I can stay out of it entirely, except to contribute bug reports. One thing that might be very useful is to comb old threads for mentions of bugs, and to copy those and put them here. A quote, copied, would get all the various posters' original formatting.

After we agree what we're going to do, I'll delete this post and any others that you want deleted from this thread.

Shoosh

[James Steele]

I know not, but moving this to the "Troubleshooting" forum.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Isn't the forum essentially a bug list? I also wonder how a report by two, or even 200, end users necessarily qualifies as a "bug." What if the problem is actually an issue with a specific OS/hardware combination that is incompatible and not a DP bug at all? Is it really fair to MOTU (or any developer) to maintain what amounts to a "hit list" of "problems" when it could be a problem with a different vendors product?

[stubbsonic]

I was going to say that a "strictly formatted list" could be VERY useful. Though I'm not on El Cap, or DP9, I can see the logic of keeping a list for current versions of DP and OS. And separate lists for Mac/Windows. If the list starts now, it could keep working forward from the current OS & DP versions with current issues closer to the top. The strict formatting would just be required to keep the list manageable and readably succinct.

MLC makes a great point about the term "bug" and assigning blame.

Perhaps we can avoid some of that by referring to the issues as KNOWN BUGS/CONFLICTS.

As for format, we could organize the list items using the following elements in kind of a spreadsheet:

TYPE: non-functioning feature, freeze/hang, U.Q. (unexpected quit)-- W or W/O crash report, glitch, or others?

CONTEXT: describing the window, command, or other situational activities and setting that are current when the problem occurs

SUSPECTED CAUSE: if some amount of trouble-shooting points to a cause, that could be listed, but perhaps without blind guessing.

WORKAROUNDS: if any

MOTU NOTES: a note about if a techlink was initiated, or if MOTU has said anything specific about the issue.

STATUS: this is cool because if an item evolves (and moves down the list, it could be changed to RESOLVED in v9.x, or RESOLVED by updating driver x, RESOLVED with OS update 10.11.xx.

[toodamnhip]

This forum is not just a big bug list, there are tips and discussions too. And there is news here about VIs and other important developments.
Re: “Bug” list:
I like the idea of a bug list, especially the “workarounds” idea as we’ve all had to develop such workarounds and this could be quite useful to many. It doesn’t need to be called a “bug” list by the way, as that may be counter intuitive to the goal of having members accept one’s findings. It can be called “DP functionality issues/possible Bug list”. Or something like that. For one thing, calling something a “Bug” opens the door to invalidation of one’s issues because of the high standard required in getting any company to admit to or validate something as a real “bug". It also allows companies to skirt issues because if they cannot duplicate it 100% of the time, it becomes discounted as rumor or a problem with one’s workflow or individual computer. I myself have had many reported “Issues” smashed to smithereens with this overly technical strata of requirement. And right when I think I may be wrong in my assessment, another user pjs me or reports they too have a certain issue. Calling something a “Bug” is definitely an open door to having one;s head chopped of or being discounted. However, if one is having an “issue”, no one can argue with that. You’re having an issue, and that’s that! You;re not calling the issue a 100% certifiable “bug”.
Watch that word” bug”. Food for thought.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

True, it is much more that a bug list. Then again, people generally find sites like this because they're having problems or lack understanding of how DP and other MOTU stuff works. Which gets back to the question of a bug list. Sometimes the "bug" is user error or a lack of...

[Shooshie]

Well, my interpretation of Robert's wishes was an actual LIST, where we could list (with pertinent details, of course) bugs that are verifiable by at least 2 other forum members.

This prevents argument about what constitutes a bug and what is poor design, or even what is not someone's workflow preference. Too many people call it a bug when it doesn't work the way THEY want it to, while many others wouldn't have it any other way. So, the verification is an important part of the list.

We could discuss the list endlessly in another thread, such as "Bug List: Comments."
But as soon as we let discussion go rampant in the list, it quits being a list. The importance of a list is that its easily referenced by us and by MOTU's programmers. One could put links to discussions in the list, I suppose, but not the actual discussion. Just pertinent details describing what, how, where, when, why, and which.

I think we should keep the list to DP9, or the current version of DP. There's no point in describing bugs in DP8 or earlier, when those same bugs will either still be in DP9, or they will have been fixed.

Shooshie

[MIDI Life Crisis]

So the rule of thumb for a bug is two people experience it?

[toodamnhip]

I think we should keep the list to DP9, or the current version of DP. There's no point in describing bugs in DP8 or earlier, when those same bugs will either still be in DP9, or they will have been fixed.

Shooshie

Ooooooo..you’re gonna rile up some members here who would differ with you on that one my brotha!
I can see some arguing that they HAVE TO stay in DP 7 because 9 sucks..et al , and that to not include “their” bugs/issues, is quite “discriminatory”.....
But personally, I understand you idea of keeping the list concise and manageable. Perhaps there can be a separate one of these lists for DP 8 and 7?

[Michael Canavan]

So I've been reading the recent discussion(s) of bugs and I realized that Motu's lack of transparency with bugs and known issues makes it very difficult to have an objective discussion about the stability, performance and bugginess of DP.

I can't think of a company that flat out maintains or discusses openly known bugs?
In emails to support MOTU have acknowledged two current DP9 bugs to me so there's that.

I am willing to take the time to maintain a list of confirmed issues (by at least 2 members or myself) with documentation.

What do folks think of this idea? Any major downsides?

A couple things come to mind:

As MLC points out, it's important to remind users that a bug can come from a bad Extension/driver on your system, a bad VST/AU, or some other thing beyond MOTU's control. So IMO any discussion about known issues should keep that in mind. Even a bad AU/VST that only exposes itself in DP can sometimes not be MOTUs fault. As an example Battery 3.0 only exposed it's bad code in Ableton Live, DP and other hosts were not affected, but it still wasn't Abletons fault it rendered Live crash prone when instantiated in a Live set, and a subsequent update to Battery resolved the issue.

Right now according to MOTU we have a couple weeks left before "9.1" drops, the NextGen PreGen implementation etc. It's almost certain that a good amount of current bugs are being fixed with that update/upgrade release. Maintaining a hit list of bugs in a thread would IMO require a person to update the first post with current issues, otherwise a thread of 40 pages of issues dating through various versions becomes a confusing mess. That requires whomever maintains the thread to update the first post on a regular basis, especially after an update and not just for DP, a new version of an AU/VST that fixes a bug in DP would have to be addressed as well.

I guess all told I'm not sure it's a good idea? because it's only a good idea if it's heavily moderated and actively updated to the point of OCD. A sloppy "DP is a buggy mess" shooting gallery in the pretext of a respectable list of issues doesn't do anything to clear the air, and a well maintained list is almost hard enough to pull off to require a salary.

[Shooshie]

I guess all told I'm not sure it's a good idea? because it's only a good idea if it's heavily moderated and actively updated to the point of OCD. A sloppy "DP is a buggy mess" shooting gallery in the pretext of a respectable list of issues doesn't do anything to clear the air, and a well maintained list is almost hard enough to pull off to require a salary.

That's why I recommend pretty stringent limits on what goes in the bug thread if Robert (or anyone) is willing to do it. Yes, it's a lot of work, but that work can be greatly simplified if we limit the bugs to those reproducible by at least two other people (or one; I'm not trying to make this hard), in DP9 only, and if we limit discussion to another thread that's not moderated.

If you use an earlier version of DP, your bugs will be discussed by way of DP9. Either the fix is there, or it's still in need of attention. One thing we can be sure of: MOTU is not going back to DP8 or DP7 to fix bugs. If you want your bugs fixed, it'll be in DP9, so there's no point in talking about earlier versions in a list like this.

Shooshie

[toodamnhip]

I am not sure why various posts have believed that 9.1 will address long term bugs? Maybe there will be a couple fixes in 9.2, sure, there always are. But anything long standing or potentially “hard” to fix, I am doubtful. As a matter of fact, I worry 9.1 will make a whole new set of bugs. 9.1 is a MAJOR MAJOR update. Members here with a memory for that sort of thing will have to chime in as to how major and compare the upcoming update to past MAJOR releases. But usually, major updates are an endeavor unto themselves and possibly such updates occur only when previous versions are considered stable and “finished”. This leads me to postulate one of two possibilities:
1) There will be one last repair update BEFORE 9.1 (This would make a lot of sense to me).
2) MOTU considers DP 9.02 stable and pretty much “finished” for now and is ready to launch something major. Complete with a whole new set of bugs attendant to the new features or capabilities.

Food for thought again.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

My main objection to a bug thread: speculation v. actual code problems.

[toodamnhip]

My main objection to a bug thread: speculation v. actual code problems.

I agree. And should we make an exact “issues” thread, I would try to avoid speculation.