NAMM 2015: DP9

[frankf]

Dave at NAMM said that the demoed features were not all there were coming, in DP9. he also explained that MOTU is not only trying to introduce new and requested features for its established user base but also trying to introduce features that it feels will attract new users to DP.

[bayswater]

The relative grid "dragging" now in DP helps preserve natural performance. I'd hate to see that go. "Absolute" grid snapping would be a good option. While we're waiting Quantize does the job. Set up the Quantize window to absolute values, select your notes, hit "q", then enter and you have it.

I don't think anyone has suggested getting rid of the relative grid. And --- quantizing does not work, particularly for MIDI. All the notes selected get quantized -- not what is wanted here.

[mikehalloran]

I know I'm alone on this one (and I've said it a 1001 times) but I would love it if MOTU would change drag-selection back to the way it was before: where grid snap was ALWAYS off during lasso selection regardless of the grid state for dragging.

No argument here. Fortunately, it can be turned off temporarily or by default but it's a convoluted pain to figure out--even after you've read the manual a few times. Page 317...

As long as we're talking about DP 9... Could we hope for a rewrite of the User Guide? It, like most manuals for long running products, gets edited to add features and remove old but the end result is a bit of a mess. Every decade or so, a ground up rewrite is needed where someone works out every part of the software and reconciles it to the documentation and then reworks the manual so that it makes sense. This should have been done with DP 8. MOTU did give us a searchable .pdf with 8. This goes a long way to making the jumble make sense.

How many really understand the current snap to grid? I double-dog dare you to figure it all out in the current manual. Frankly, this thread has told many of us a lot we didn't understand before.

[bayswater]

also trying to introduce features that it feels will attract new users to DP.

Then MIDI regions and snap to grid should be no-brainers.

[HobbyCore]

The relative grid "dragging" now in DP helps preserve natural performance. I'd hate to see that go. "Absolute" grid snapping would be a good option. While we're waiting Quantize does the job. Set up the Quantize window to absolute values, select your notes, hit "q", then enter and you have it.

Unfortunately, quantize doesn't always go in the right direction, and you don't always want to go to the same value. It's very finnicky if you're trying to correct a performance with quantize.

I know I sound like a broken record regarding this, but it's more correct to say 'Sometimes quantize does the job after you fiddle with it'.

Dave at NAMM said that the demoed features were not all there were coming, in DP9. he also explained that MOTU is not only trying to introduce new and requested features for its established user base but also trying to introduce features that it feels will attract new users to DP.

This is good news, and probably expected. I am very hopeful for many of our feature requests to be implemented, and many more new users to fund the development of our feature requests.

That said... snap to grid and MIDI regions are 2 things that put off a lot of potential buyers. It's been discussed on vi-control, kvr and gearslutz. I've seen plenty of people ask about DP and be told to avoid it because of these "issues".

[HobbyCore]

How many really understand the current snap to grid? I double-dog dare you to figure it all out in the current manual. Frankly, this thread has told many of us a lot we didn't understand before.

Nobody does, because it doesn't actually snap TO the grid. It snaps BY the grid amount.

[bayswater]

As long as we're talking about DP 9... Could we hope for a rewrite of the User Guide?

Amen. There are errors that have been there since V6 if not 5.

[stubbsonic]

Yeah, you're alone on that one. That would absolutely drive me crazy!

I can see how it would be very useful when working with MIDI, and I would imagine that you want that to be the default, but with audio I can't see how that would be particularly useful to always be that way.

Could you explain your usage where this helps with audio, if it does?

It doesn't. I'm thinking only for MIDI.

With unquantized or percentage-quantized MIDI, I leave the absolute grid on because:
A. I often drag pitches up/down but don't want to change timings (with the relative grid on, the notes can slide up/down without going sideways as easily),
B. I often move or drag-copy phrases or sections.

Because I rarely quantize and if I do, it is almost always a percentage, when I try to lasso notes that are within a range, DP will either select notes outside my range or it will omit notes that are a few ticks early. So I have to hold down a modifier key EVERY time I select a range of notes. If it worked as before, I'd be able to lasso from just before the notes I want to just after. As it is now, I either hold a modifier key every time I select-- and also, DP won't always accurately show what is highlighted until I release the mouse.

[mikehalloran]

So I have to hold down a modifier key EVERY time I select a range of notes. If it worked as before, I'd be able to lasso from just before the notes I want to just after.

My point exactly. You can change that.

[HobbyCore]

Yeah, you're alone on that one. That would absolutely drive me crazy!

I can see how it would be very useful when working with MIDI, and I would imagine that you want that to be the default, but with audio I can't see how that would be particularly useful to always be that way.

Could you explain your usage where this helps with audio, if it does?

It doesn't. I'm thinking only for MIDI.

With unquantized or percentage-quantized MIDI, I leave the absolute grid on because:
A. I often drag pitches up/down but don't want to change timings (with the relative grid on, the notes can slide up/down without going sideways as easily),
B. I often move or drag-copy phrases or sections.

Because I rarely quantize and if I do, it is almost always a percentage, when I try to lasso notes that are within a range, DP will either select notes outside my range or it will omit notes that are a few ticks early. So I have to hold down a modifier key EVERY time I select a range of notes. If it worked as before, I'd be able to lasso from just before the notes I want to just after. As it is now, I either hold a modifier key every time I select-- and also, DP won't always accurately show what is highlighted until I release the mouse.

That sounds a bit strange that the default is how it is then. I don't use MIDI at all in DP, but the way you describe wanting to work sounds like the most reasonable default from what I understand.

[Shooshie]

The relative grid "dragging" now in DP helps preserve natural performance. I'd hate to see that go. "Absolute" grid snapping would be a good option. While we're waiting Quantize does the job. Set up the Quantize window to absolute values, select your notes, hit "q", then enter and you have it.

That's basically always been my "absolute grid." I've never used quantize on input, and I've rarely used the pencil tool for note entry (but often use step record, if there is something I can do faster that way, like reading complex parts in alto clef or tenor clef), but between quantize, shift, relative grid, and Adjust Beats, I've always gotten things right where I want them.

Of course, taking care when you play in the parts helps a lot!!!

Also, there's Nudge. I'll usually set it to some small amount like 2 or 3 ticks, and you can quickly get a selection on target if it's so close that you can't drag without overshooting. But as I said earlier, I always avoid putting much on the beat. If I'm playing chords, and they're falling right on the beat, I'll nudge some fingers off by a few ticks. It just sounds more real to me.

Of course, when the absolute grid would come in handy is when you've got the beats recorded or moved (they snap, by the way) to the notes. The performance is preserved, and you can snap to the beats without quantizing. You can even quantize without quantizing. The music stays with the beats, but the time itself is moving around, so that the beats are never exactly on the beat!

I just wish they'd put in the feature and be done with it. Babz is right; they should have put it in back in the very beginning. I know why they didn't, and probably why they still don't, but it really should be there. Grids make non-musical lines. They wanted DP to stand out musically. You don't get that if everyone takes the short cut and uses the grid. It worked. DP is known as the more musical DAW. DP has more ways to move and adjust the notes than I could ever use, and all of them produce more musical results, if you're careful. But an absolute grid? That never produces a musical result, except when the beats have been first moved to match the performance. But an absolute grid is a tool, and it should be in the tool chest.

Shooshie

[MikeInBoston]

I just wish they'd put in the feature and be done with it. Babz is right; they should have put it in back in the very beginning. I know why they didn't, and probably why they still don't, but it really should be there. Grids make non-musical lines. They wanted DP to stand out musically. You don't get that if everyone takes the short cut and uses the grid. It worked. DP is known as the more musical DAW. DP has more ways to move and adjust the notes than I could ever use, and all of them produce more musical results, if you're careful. But an absolute grid? That never produces a musical result, except when the beats have been first moved to match the performance. But an absolute grid is a tool, and it should be in the tool chest.

Shooshie

Yes, it should have been there from the beginning, but I disagree with you, Shooshie, as much as I respect you and love reading your comments. I've learned quite a few things from your posts, and I thank you.

The thing that I disagree with is this: I believe the reason MOTU hasn't put in an absolute grid is because it's a major rewrite of a fundamental part of the program, and they simply don't have the programmers available to spend that much time (and time is money) to write the new code and work out all the bugs. With all the software and hardware products that they sell, I would bet that MOTU's staff is stretched pretty thin. And I believe that's why some of their recent upgrades have been lackluster. I also believe MOTU has been resting on its laurels with DP and not keeping up with the times.

Another thing. I'm one of those composers who uses the pencil tool in DP all the time (and I can't be the only one), and so an absolute grid would be a welcome addition. I'm not a performer or keyboardist, and when I do play a riff into DP with my keyboard, I usually have so much "fixing up" to do, that it almost ain't worth the bother. Also, I don't record audio, and I seldom work with audio bytes. Im simply a MIDI guy with a big musical imagination and the learned music theory to back it up, who uses virtual synths and samplers to create his orchestral compositions. Perhaps some of you guys with amazing performance chops might look their noses down at me, but hey, I'm happy, and surprising myself all the time with the results.

The reason I use DP is because it has the BEST MIDI EDITOR in the business, both for working with notes and continuous controllers. And that's why I use it. Yes, DP is a great DAW, but it could be an even better DAW if MOTU put in the time and resources to bring it up to date.

Mike

[stubbsonic]

So I have to hold down a modifier key EVERY time I select a range of notes. If it worked as before, I'd be able to lasso from just before the notes I want to just after.

My point exactly. You can change that.

I'm pretty sure I understand how it is set up.

I EITHER have to hold down command when I drag, or hold down command when I select. So unless there is something else I don't know about, it's down to that.

[Babz]

The relative grid "dragging" now in DP helps preserve natural performance. I'd hate to see that go. "Absolute" grid snapping would be a good option. While we're waiting Quantize does the job. Set up the Quantize window to absolute values, select your notes, hit "q", then enter and you have it.

One more time with feeling.

I am not talking about MIDI or material that I play myself. See what I wrote above. I need to be able to import audio, chop it up, and line up tiny clips on a grid down to 16th (or even 32nd) note. I don't always know in advance exactly where the clips will sit best. I don't see how quantizing applies, or is even helpful, in this situation.

Without absolute great snapping, I have to zoom in really close and line things up visually, without the benefit of the grid snapping at all!

Of couse, I'm all for relative great snapping and preserving natural performance and all that (in those situations where I actually am performing) and don't want any of that to change. I also use that all the time.

Babz

[mikehalloran]

So I have to hold down a modifier key EVERY time I select a range of notes. If it worked as before, I'd be able to lasso from just before the notes I want to just after.

My point exactly. You can change that.

I'm pretty sure I understand how it is set up.

I EITHER have to hold down command when I drag, or hold down command when I select. So unless there is something else I don't know about, it's down to that.

I don't because I have snap-to-grid off by default. How to do this is on page 317.

Two-handed mouse/trackpad moves are not in my repertoire. If there's a way to do something one-handed, I look for it.