Large orchestral template with Vienna Ensemble Pro

[fatnack]

Dear Community

As a film composer, I'm currently working with Pro Tools and am considering to switch to Digital Performer. This would mean that I have to migrate my large orchestral template, which is a network setup that consists of roughly 12 Vienna Ensemble Pro (VEP) instances, all with up to 16 outputs. The thing is that I want to do all the mixing right in the DAW, so I really need one output per virtual instrument (so only one return per "instrument group" does not really do the trick for me).

As far as I understand, I'd need to create the following in DP:

- One virtual instrument per VEP instance (~ 12)
- One MIDI channel per instrument per VEP instance (~ 190)
- One Aux channel per instrument per VEP instance (minus one for Out 1-2, which comes back on the virtual instrument channel, ~ 180)

Is that really the easiest way? In Pro Tools and Logic I have the possibility to create instrument tracks which can both send MIDI and return the respective audio.

Thanks for any advice

Cheers
Remo

[FMiguelez]

Welcome to the forum, Remo.

Dear Community

As a film composer, I'm currently working with Pro Tools and am considering to switch to Digital Performer. This would mean that I have to migrate my large orchestral template, which is a network setup that consists of roughly 12 Vienna Ensemble Pro (VEP) instances, all with up to 16 outputs. The thing is that I want to do all the mixing right in the DAW, so I really need one output per virtual instrument (so only one return per "instrument group" does not really do the trick for me).

I'm not clear what you mean by what I bolded above. It almost contradicts your next sentence.

Do you mean you need one output for each instrument, i.e., Eb Clarinet, Bb clarinet, bass clarinet, etc., each in its own channel?

If so, that's really easy to do. See below.

As far as I understand, I'd need to create the following in DP:

- One virtual instrument per VEP instance (~ 12)
- One MIDI channel per instrument per VEP instance (~ 190)
- One Aux channel per instrument per VEP instance (minus one for Out 1-2, which comes back on the virtual instrument channel, ~ 180)

Is that really the easiest way? In Pro Tools and Logic I have the possibility to create instrument tracks which can both send MIDI and return the respective audio.

There are many ways to work in DP with VIs.

For example, you can use one instance of VE Pro for each orchestral family (with VE Pro Event Inputs if necessary). From this, you obviously get one MIDI channel and one audio return (or aux track) channel per instrument.
You can certainly use aux tracks, but I personally don't recommend it because you'd essentially have lots of redundant and wasted bundles. You can, instead, use regular audio tracks as returns for each instrument.
From there you can make mix subgroups or route them in a myriad ways. DP is extremely versatile for routing. Also, you can make full use of V-Racks (so your samples don't reload every time you switch chunks).

If you saved your VE Pro sessions as matrix or VE Pro files, you can easily "transfer" them into DP once the VE Pro connections are made, so controlling which instances you want to open can be controlled from the Chunks window (this is an ESSENTIAL DP function).

There are like a ton of VE Pro and template-related threads. Use the search function to find out more.

Here are a few related threads you may find very useful:

http://www.motunation.com/forum/viewtop ... 26&t=57693


http://www.motunation.com/forum/viewtop ... 26&t=50004


http://www.motunation.com/forum/viewtop ... 26&t=57422

http://www.motunation.com/forum/viewtop ... 26&t=57597

http://www.motunation.com/forum/viewtop ... 26&t=57626

[fatnack]

Thanks a lot for your answer. Things are looking much clearer now

Do you mean you need one output for each instrument, i.e., Eb Clarinet, Bb clarinet, bass clarinet, etc., each in its own channel?

Yes, exactly.

For example, you can use one instance of VE Pro for each orchestral family (with VE Pro Event Inputs if necessary).

That does make sense. So I have 1 instrument track for every VEP instance, and 1 MIDI and 1 audio track for every instrument within these VEP instances, right? But in this setup, if I'm right, when I'm editing a MIDI track and want to solo it, I'd need to lookup the corresponding audio track first and then solo this one. Correct?

If you saved your VE Pro sessions as matrix or VE Pro files, you can easily "transfer" them into DP once the VE Pro connections are made, so controlling which instances you want to open can be controlled from the Chunks window (this is an ESSENTIAL DP function).

I'm not fully clear what you mean by that. Could you maybe point me in the right direction concerning this feature? At least it sounds great so I need to know

Again, thanks a lot for your great support!

[FMiguelez]

For example, you can use one instance of VE Pro for each orchestral family (with VE Pro Event Inputs if necessary).

That does make sense. So I have 1 instrument track for every VEP instance, and 1 MIDI and 1 audio track for every instrument within these VEP instances, right?

Well, it's more like you'd have LOTS of instrument tracks (returns) for every VEP instance (as many tracks as you have instruments in there). Each of those audio track returns would have its corresponding MIDI track.
You could opt to have 1 VEP instances per family, or you could cram more if you need to (maybe WWs and Brass in one instance), but that depends on your setup, e.i., if you use slave computers and how many, how you have your samples distributed in HDs or SSDs, etc.

But in this setup, if I'm right, when I'm editing a MIDI track and want to solo it, I'd need to lookup the corresponding audio track first and then solo this one. Correct?

No. Not at all. That would make it impossibly slow and tedious to edit! Phew!....

FORTUNATELY, you have options to do that. One of them is to make the audio returns "solo safe", so they they are always active and transmit whatever sound they get. This way, you just need to deal with soloing the MIDI tracks as needed.
ONCE you print your MIDI tracks, then you can forget about MIDI and revert the audio tracks to NOT solo safe, so you can control soloing for them normally (you do this by clicking on the button and dragging down if they're contiguous).

If you saved your VE Pro sessions as matrix or VE Pro files, you can easily "transfer" them into DP once the VE Pro connections are made, so controlling which instances you want to open can be controlled from the Chunks window (this is an ESSENTIAL DP function).

I'm not fully clear what you mean by that. Could you maybe point me in the right direction concerning this feature? At least it sounds great so I need to know

What I mean is that all the info that gets saved as part of the VE Pro program (assignments, automation, I/O, names, colors, etc.) can be learnt, stored and sent as needed by DP in the current session (or your current template).
You do this by using V-Racks (one per VEP instance). This way, every time you turn on a V-Rack, it connects and transmits all that info to the corresponding slave computer. It loads everything automatically, so you don't need to open VE Pro and load each instance manually.
This feature is WAAAAAAAY cool! It's so easy to manage your computer's resources like this as well, since you can turn them on/off as needed, with or without reloading the samples).

At least one of the links I posted above talk about this in detail.

Again, thanks a lot for your great support!

My pleasure!

[fatnack]

Brilliant, you saved my day and probably many following days

Just one little thing I just noticed:

In the following example, I have an instance of VEP which contains 3 brass instruments. In VEP they're assigned to Out 1/2, 3/4 and 5/6 (I use the same instance with Pro Tools and Logic). I'd now like to route each of them to an audio track in DP. The funny thing (to me) is that the audio for Out 1/2 is routed back at the instrument track, and can't be assigned as an input of the audio tracks. A workaround I figured out is to use a bus for this, but this seems to be rather quirky. Another workaround is to disregard the Outputs 1-2 from the VEP instance and start assigning at 3-4, but this does not look 'clean' to me either.



So in this example, I'd like the audio track 'Solo Trumpet' to receive the audio from Out 1-2 of the VEP instance.

Do you have any advice?

I'm starting to love DP!

[FMiguelez]

Your 2 solutions would work fine, and that's how I'd do it.

Simply assign the main out of the VI (1-2) to a buss, or start your output numbering in VE Pro from 3-4. This last one is my preferred method (it saves one VERY needed bundle for each instance for other more useful things).

It might seem not clean, but it's not a big deal, especially if you use the 2nd option above, you won't even notice it after setup.
This happens with all the VIs I use, BTW. For VIs like MachFive, which have a dedicated output just for FXs, this is very convenient to have like that (something Stylus lacks, BTW).

[fatnack]

Brilliant, thanks a lot for your support. I grew really fond of DP and spent the whole day migrating my orchestral template to it.

But the problems started as soon as I began to play some stuff:

- The playback lags. A lot. When I start playing back, it takes about half a second before it even starts. The playback CPU indication usually starts at 50% and then goes down rapidly. I'm using a state-of-the-art Mac Pro (2013) and an external machine for VEP. The system works without any flaws with Pro Tools.

- It plays back MIDI notes that are not even there. For instance, if I play something at bar 10, and then stop and rewind, and then play back from the beginning (there is no MIDI until bar 10), it starts playing back arbitrary notes (or maybe it could be a note that it was playing after bar 10). This even happens when I turn off my MIDI interface (so it can't be just some events from "outside"). I also tried to turn on and of event chasing, but this did not do the trick.

I really hope that I'm just missing a switch or setting somewhere, because I started to love DP.

Thanks a lot in advance for your support!

Cheers
Remo

[bayswater]

start your output numbering in VE Pro from 3-4. This last one is my preferred method (it saves one VERY needed bundle for each instance for other more useful things).

Same here. I always start output assignments at 3-4. First, it lets you put in a bundle name that makes sense to you, and second if you try out different patches, outputs 1-2 are always there as a default to monitor it until you decide whether to assign it to a permanent pair and give it a bundle name.

[FMiguelez]

I really hope that I'm just missing a switch or setting somewhere, because I started to love DP.

I think that is the case.

Let's see:
What is the buffer size set to? Try increasing it to see if it helps. Also, what about VE Pro's buffer settings? You can try to find a good combination.
There are also other settings, i.e., Quanta, that you can try changing.

What you mentioned about the MIDI notes is definitely not normal. I'm not sure what may be causing that.
Did you try restarting the computer?
Do you have a fast dedicated HD or SSD for your DP projects?
Is your MIDI interface connected to USB2 or USB 3? Mine gave me problems until I changed the connection to USB2.

If you keep having problems, try loading your full template/project into a totally new one (make sure you load the Bunles as well.

Try that and let us know how it goes. Hopefully we can solve it, so you can really enjoy DP!

[fatnack]

Thanks! Increasing the VEP buffer size to 2 did the trick for the playback lag! Hopefully I find a way of working with less delay some time.

The weird MIDI problems sort of solved themselves. I think the problem was that I was importing MIDI from a Logic project. I could copy some MIDI (strings) into my DP sequence, play it. Then I could remove the MIDI again, play back and one of the note still played. But it can't be reproduced all the time. However, I re-played the corresponding tracks and now it seems to work quite well. Thank you!

[fatnack]

I'm afraid, the problems are still there. As soon as I activate the VRack with my 9 VEP instances in it, the whole software just starts to lag. The "processing" indicator is always at least around 10%, even if I'm not playing back. The VEP buffers are set to 2, and the DP hardware buffer is set to 256. When I increase the latter one to 4096, it works slightly better. But then the delay is stupidly high.

In both Pro Tools and Logic, I can use the same VEP template without any VEP buffers and it works smoothly. On the same system.

I really hope there is a fix for it, as I started to love DP (for the features, not for the performance or the stability, ...yet).

Thanks in advance!

[sinkd]

Hi there.

I REALLY hope you found a solution to your problem before now, but it sounds like you need to change a plugins preference. In prefs under Audio Plugins, choose 'Virtual instruments in real time' in the Plug-in time preferences.


DS

[OLB]

I'm having about the same setup as you but I usually run about 6 VEP instances.

My buffer settings now are as follows.

Buffer size: 64
Host Buffer Multiplier (HBM): 3 (or 4)
Work Priority: High

This multiplier is a strange one, normally it works for aggregated devices but it really works to lower the strain on the cpu.

It does add extra latency when using the 1x, 2x multiplier in VEP. But I have it at 1x which gives me 256 samples of latency (64 times 4). When having the HBM at 3 it has a latency of 192 samples (3x64).

When recording percussion f.e. I set the VEP multiplier on 0 and have a very snappy 64 samples latency.

I never expected it to work like this but it does! Have a try!

[fatnack]

Thanks a lot for your very helpful answers and sorry for the late reply (I've been quite busy lately). Using your recommendation for the buffer settings, it works quite well now - at least much more stable than any other DAW I've tried so far.

Once my template is set up fully to my taste, I'll think about making an instructional video regarding the little things and tweaks I learned along the way.