Serious copy/paste bug in DP8

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FMiguelez
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Re: Serious copy/paste bug in DP8

Post by FMiguelez »

Shooshie wrote:
I've been begging for a solution to the controllers/notes conundrum for many, many years.
Me too...
:boohoo:

Maybe not years, but for a while now.

I still find it ridiculously clumsy to, instead of being able to temporarily "mute" a MIDI CC (a VSL parameter, for instance) quickly in the Automation Setup window, I have to duplicate the track, look for the CC I want to mute, delete it, and listen... and then delete the extra track... By the time I do all that, I forget what I wanted to do in the first place! I mean, isn't that a real hassle? Doing it one or two times is fine. But try doing it hundreds of times and, well... it's simply idiotic.
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reedster
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Re: Serious copy/paste bug in DP8

Post by reedster »

Sorry it's not working, over here if there's a selection, either time or object based, copy / paste puts the data goes exactly where it's specified - notes and CC both appear to work OK.

I wonder about your Edit / Smart Selections setting - mine's turned off. If Smart Selections is turned on, try turning it off. That may help the pasted data go exactly at the Insertion Point.
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Shooshie
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Re: Serious copy/paste bug in DP8

Post by Shooshie »

FMiguelez wrote:
Shooshie wrote:
I've been begging for a solution to the controllers/notes conundrum for many, many years.
Me too...
:boohoo:

Maybe not years, but for a while now.

I still find it ridiculously clumsy to, instead of being able to temporarily "mute" a MIDI CC (a VSL parameter, for instance) quickly in the Automation Setup window, I have to duplicate the track, look for the CC I want to mute, delete it, and listen... and then delete the extra track... By the time I do all that, I forget what I wanted to do in the first place! I mean, isn't that a real hassle? Doing it one or two times is fine. But try doing it hundreds of times and, well... it's simply idiotic.
That IS a lot of trouble. While I 100% agree that MOTU needs to do something to make this easier, it's much simpler to double-click one event of the data type you want to mute, then delete. Double-clicking, of course, selects all data of that type. Delete, listen, then hit UNDO to bring it back.

Not the same as "MUTE" or "SOLO," but it's a lot easier than creating and deleting tracks. I do use scratch tracks for this kind of thing, but not for muting. I just delete the data type to remove it and undo when I'm done.

I may be imaging things, but it seems like back in the early 1990s there was a Play Filter. Like the View Filter, it allowed you to types of data and remove them, but unlike the View Filter, it muted the data you deselected in the filter window, but didn't necessarily remove it from sight. I may just have remembered that wrong, but I've thought about it for the past 15 years or so! I've wondered if they removed such a useful feature, or if I just imagined that it used to be there!!! Whatever the case, it's not there now.

Even that would not be as useful as a MIDI mute.

But I have a solution that would work very well for a lot of our problems. If MOTU would add a function to the MIDI Edit Window, we could paste what and where we want, copy to where we want, and mute what we want, all easily done. Look at the picture below. See the track selector? Imagine that by selecting notes, holding down a key and moving the track selector you could move or (adding the option key) copy those notes to another track, or hold down another key and move them to "mute" track. MOTU could go a step further and let us have a MUTE command, which would essentially move the notes to the mute track without actually moving them from view. It would turn them gray, and it would remember which track they came from by virtue of some marker appended to each note's information.

And also, that marker would be visible at the top of the window when we click on a note: its track name would be visible so that we know exactly what track every note is from. Color coding is good, but with limited numbers of colors, and some too faint or dark to be usable, we need track names to be visible with all the other event information.

So, imagine below that I'm going to move the selected Violin note to the Viola. Just hold down a key (let's say V) and drag the "pencil" tool to Viola. "OPTION-V-DRAG the pencil" would copy rather than move it. Or just hit M to mute, OPTION-M to unmute. And imagine that up above, you'd see "VIOLIN" somewhere to tell you that the selected note is in the Violin track.

Image

This is what I've been asking MOTU to do for a long time. I'd appreciate it if anyone who agrees with me would write MOTU (or mention it next time you talk to them) and ask them to take seriously Shooshie's suggestion for the MIDI Graphic Edit Window. It's been put in their suggestion box, it's been sent via tech support ticket, and I've presented it to tech support people over the phone.

This is basic functionality here! It needs to be done, and it needs to be simple. This is simple. Doesn't even require copying and pasting. Just select, then hold a key and move the pencil.

Sorry to sound so fanatical about it, but I'm getting old while waiting for some basic functionality in the Edit window!!! Let's get this done while we are still active users! I've been using this app for about 27 years!!!

Shooshie
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Re: Serious copy/paste bug in DP8

Post by Shooshie »

reedster wrote:Sorry it's not working, over here if there's a selection, either time or object based, copy / paste puts the data goes exactly where it's specified - notes and CC both appear to work OK.

I wonder about your Edit / Smart Selections setting - mine's turned off. If Smart Selections is turned on, try turning it off. That may help the pasted data go exactly at the Insertion Point.
When you say "it's not working," you mean that for you it IS working? The bug doesn't happen for you?

Are you using multiple tracks in a single MIDI Graphic Edit Window? Yeah, it generally goes to the right place, time-wise, but it doesn't go to the right track.

The way I always understood this window to work was that you put the pencil by the track that you want active, and it should paste to that track. It only pastes to the original track from which you copied or cut the data. In the example above (my previous post), the violin note is copied. I should be able to move the track selector icon to "Viola," deselect the original selection, then place my cursor (time wiper) where I want to paste, and paste it into the Viola track. But the only way to do it is to OPTION-CLICK the viola track so that it's the only track showing.

So, it can be done fairly easily, but then I have to reselect the tracks that I want to appear in the window. That takes a large amount of time when you have a hundred tracks. (which I don't, in the example above, but I HAVE had that many) I shouldn't have to reselect all my tracks, no matter how many there are. Just move the little pencil icon to the track, then paste.

But then... why even have to do that? Why not hold down a key and drag the icon to the track you want, and then it moves the selection to that track? But now I'm speculating about wishes. I thought the graphic edit window actually worked the way I described three paragraphs up.

And no, it's not Smart Selections. That bug has bitten me before, too, so I keep SS off.

People who use only one MIDI track per window do not realize this is happening to those of us who use multiple tracks in one window. They speak of selecting the target track in the upper right corner of the window, but that's not how the window works when it has multiple tracks visible.

Shooshie
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reedster
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Re: Serious copy/paste bug in DP8

Post by reedster »

This thread is little difficult for me to follow - several related issues are intertwined. I've quoted a little chunk of Shooshie's note below to try to focus on one issue.

If we're going to discuss about how it should be, or what's a workaround or what's intuitive - seems like those topics could be in a different thread.

Here's my premise - if you can select the data, you can reliably paste the data in any track at the exact time you want.
The way I always understood this window to work was that you put the pencil by the track that you want active, and it should paste to that track.
I thought this way, too. Until the OP brought up the topic, I didn't realize two DP features, Master Track Selector and Window Target, are different. This distinction is key to making the system do exactly what I want.

The pencil icon indicates Master Track Selector. Window Target determines where pasted data lands.

The manual and my experiments don't indicate Master Track Selector helps or provides anything useful when pasting data. The manual explains what MTS does - I certainly had some misconceptions about it.

The tab in the upper right of the MIDI Graphic Editor is named the Window Target menu. The tab appears to indicate Master Track - but at this time that info doesn't appear help with pasting.

Unfortunately, when you change Window Targets in MIDI Graphic Editor you loose the multi-track display.

But if you change Window Target in the Event List you don't loose your Graphic Editor view. Pretty much ensures the data goes to the correct track if you change Window Target just before the paste.

To get accurate timing, turn off Smart Selections. Use Point Mode to ensure you know exactly what Continuous Controller data is selected.

Yes, sure I view and work with multiple tracks simultaneously in the GE.

No, I can not always maintain the GE view I want and while making the selection I want. Folders can somewhat mitigate the frustration of setting up and then loosing a complex view in MIDI Graphic Editor.

Please feel free to correct any inaccuracies.
Last edited by reedster on Fri May 23, 2014 3:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Serious copy/paste bug in DP8

Post by MDesigner »

That's what's broken, though. Window Target is completely hosed. I'll choose "Cellos" and it instead pastes on some other track. However, I just now noticed this is only when I have "Hide other tracks when opening to selection" unchecked in Prefs > MIDI Editing. If you have that enabled, Window Target works as expected with pasting. But I have this option unchecked so I can see multiple tracks in the MIDI window for reference.
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Re: Serious copy/paste bug in DP8

Post by reedster »

Wonder what's different about our systems or process?

Over here, the clipboard data goes to Window Target every time.

Are you changing window target in Event List?
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Re: Serious copy/paste bug in DP8

Post by MDesigner »

Maybe my system is buggy. I have another weird bug: when I try to rename a color scheme, every time I type a letter, the text box goes inactive and I have to click in it again.

And no, I'm changing Window Target by using the upper right tab of the MIDI Editor.
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Re: Serious copy/paste bug in DP8

Post by Shooshie »

I think I see what happened. When the code was updated for 64 bits (I'm assuming), the programmer was told that when copying/pasting the source of the copy must be deselected before the Master Track Selector will choose where the paste is to go.

The programmer confused "deselect" and "hide." He made it so that you have to hide the track from which you copied the material, or else the paste will go right back into it. That is, he made it so that you 'deselect' the track from the Track Selector list. That hides the track.

All that was necessary before was to hit COMMAND-D to deselect the region from which the copy was sourced. Then the Track Selector would make it go to the right place. (if I remember correctly)

So, now we just have to hide the original track. Then the Master Track Selector works as it's supposed to.

By the way, the Target Menu has no more effect than the Master Track Selector. In fact, they're the same things, just in two different places.

Also, the window behaves a lot differently compared to the way it used to. I wrote out a long post describing the behaviors of the MIDI Graphic Edit Window with each of the options in the preferences. But I won't post it unless people really want me to, because it's LONG. But the window is different, I think, from its former self.

Shooshie
[EDIT: I'm finding that my conclusions here were entirely wrong. Nothing seems to work consistently. Please disregard all my posts on workarounds in this thread. [/EDIT]
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Re: Serious copy/paste bug in DP8

Post by reedster »

Try using the Event List to switch Window Target.

What I wrote earlier about the MIDI window about Window Target and the check mark appears to be wrong. I'll see if I can edit that sentence.

In the Event List, Window Target is different than Master Track Selector, see Page 303 in the manual.

When you leave the data selected and use Event List to switch to a different target track then the pasted copy goes in at the same time as the selected data - which can be handy.
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Re: Serious copy/paste bug in DP8

Post by Shooshie »

reedster wrote:Try using the Event List to switch Window Target.

What I wrote earlier about the MIDI window about Window Target and the check mark appears to be wrong. I'll see if I can edit that sentence.

In the Event List, Window Target is different than Master Track Selector, see Page 303 in the manual.

When you leave the data selected and use Event List to switch to a different target track then the pasted copy goes in at the same time as the selected data - which can be handy.


I did that over and over, and it worked exactly like the Target Menu in the MGE Window. (The tab in the upper right corner of the window)

But I'm finding that what I wrote earlier is also wrong. Hiding the original track does not do the trick. It did when it was the topmost track.

It's so screwed up that I can't find a consistent behavior. I keep thinking I've found it, but then a few minutes later it doesn't work that way anymore. I don't know what is going on. Maybe after I study it for a while a behavior will come to light, but I haven't found that behavior yet.

Disregard everything I've said in this thread about current workarounds. I cannot make it work consistently. Not with my own advice, not with Reedster's advice, not with anyone's suggested method. It just doesn't work as it should!

Shooshie
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Re: Serious copy/paste bug in DP8

Post by reedster »

Yeah, I'm not sold on Window Target in the MGE window - I'm not getting how it behaves - I'm sure I double checked the behavior yesterday before posting.

Anyway, I'm having really consistent results, maybe what I'm doing or my goal is not the same thing as what you all are looking for.

Here's what I'm doing:

http://s256.photobucket.com/user/markca ... t.mp4.html

There's no need to deselect if you want the data to go to the same time.

Maybe the difference is that I'm pasting in the Event List?
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Re: Serious copy/paste bug in DP8

Post by Shooshie »

reedster wrote:Maybe the difference is that I'm pasting in the Event List?

Oh! I didn't realize that. I thought you were merely using the Event List to select the track.

Well, that's ONE way to get around the MGE's bugs. Paste it somewhere else! :lol:

Shooshie
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Re: Serious copy/paste bug in DP8

Post by reedster »

I'm starting to have fun exploring this.

MDesigner pointed out the preference MIDI Editing / Track Display - I'm liking things much better with that pref not selected. Then I don't loose the MIDI Graphic Editor view when going to Tracks or Sequence.

With the above setting, now I can go into Sequence Editor, which in the past I disdained for MIDI work, and easily make a time-based selection of notes and controllers.

Then copy / paste that data where ever using Event List / Window Target

Then return to MGE and still see the track display as it was.

Woo Hoo, it's a new day !
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Re: Serious copy/paste bug in DP8

Post by Shooshie »

It can be fun!

But I still wish MOTU would fix the MGE Window so that we can do all that in one window if we want.
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