Can DP receive All Notes Off (CC 123 #0) messages?

[lord funk]

Ran into an issue today while testing an app. I'm sending the All Notes Off message (CC 123 #0) into the computer through a micro lite. The messages appear in snoize's MIDI Monitor, but they do not record or pass through a DP MIDI track. In essence, I've got stuck notes in a VI, and the external All Notes Off messages aren't getting there to stop them.

I just noticed that MIDI tracks do not support writing of CC messages higher than 121. I am surprised, though, that they won't even pass them through from their input.

(I know about the command-1 Stop All Sounding MIDI Notes, but I'm much more interested in getting the external command to register).

Any insight would be appreciated.

[bayswater]

Interesting. Looks like quite a few DAWs don't let you do controllers 121-127. PT, Live, The DAW Who's Name Shall Not Be Uttered. Maybe there's a concern about having a message that shuts down the show.

Perhaps you can set up a very simple custom console that translates another controller not in use to #123. DP might not let you input #123, but maybe it will generate one.

[Shooshie]

When was the last time you used CC 123 to send out an all-notes-off command from a major sequencer?

There are one hundred twenty eight (0-127) Control Change messages (abbreviated "CC") which fall into two categories of MIDI messages: "Channel Voice Messages" and "Channel Mode Messages." The CC numbers above 120 are Channel Mode Messages. While these represent an important set of controllers, they are more suited to hardware device control in series (a string of synths connected by MIDI cables, for example) than for a computer-based sequencer that acts as the center of a large MIDI network via a MIDI interface. Most of the things they control are either redundant or not applicable in a DAW-based modern MIDI network. Some may lead to conflict with settings within the DAW, such as Omni Off, Poly, or Mono messages. Others may be more suited to settings within one's keyboard synth, such as Local Control on/off.

In the DP Tips Sheet, you will find a list of the controllers that DP recognizes, and the general assignment often attributed to some of them. Note that DP allows you to use any of the Channel Voice Control Change Messages for any purpose; it doesn't stick to the list of suggested uses. But the Channel Mode messages don't make as much sense for a full-featured DAW with other ways of accomplishing those tasks, so DP ignores them.

Here are the controllers in question, from the Tips Sheet thread, page 6:

• Hex Decimal--Channel Mode
  78 120 -- All Sound Off ignored
  79 121 -- All Controllers Off ignored
  7A 122 -- Local Keyboard On/Off 0..63=off--64..127=on
  7B 123 -- All Notes Off ignored
  7C 124 -- Omni Mode Off ignored
  7D 125 -- Omni Mode On ignored
  7E 126 -- Monophonic Mode On **
  7F 127 -- Polyphonic Mode On (mono=off) ignored
  
  
  Also, just for the record:
  83 131 -- Aftertouch (Mono-Pressure in DP)

While they have their uses, that knowledge is pretty esoteric stuff that few users are aware of these days. Also, my guess would be that modern MIDI devices may or may not implement Channel Mode Messages in unexpected ways, making these messages less predictable in their outcome when sent out over a network. If your hardware device can utilize them, send them out via a MIDI Time Piece (or the current incarnation of that top-end MIDI switching station), but be sure you know which devices you're sending it to, and how they handle them.

Another option may be SysEx from within DP, but I'm not sure how that would work, or even IF it would work. I'm not about to attempt to write a sample SysEx message, for even if it would work, it would depend on the particular devices being used, and their ID numbers within the network.

Anyway, for what I assume are pragmatic reasons, MOTU chose to have DP ignore those signals.


Here is what one web-page about controllers says about the upper end of the controller list:

• It's probably best not to use the group below for assigning controllers.
  
  96 Data Button increment
  97 Data Button decrement
  98 Non-registered Parameter (LSB)
  99 Non-registered Parameter (MSB)
  100 Registered Parameter (LSB)
  101 Registered Parameter (MSB)
  
  It's very important that you do not use these no matter what unless you want to invoke these functions
  
  120 All Sound Off
  121 All Controllers Off
  122 Local Keyboard (on/off) You might actually crash your keyboard if you use this one.
  123 All Notes Off (Heh, your song will go haywire if you use this assigned to a knob.)
  
  you typically don't want your synths to change modes on you in the middle of making a song, so don't use these.
  
  124 Omni Mode Off
  125 Omni Mode On
  126 Mono Operation
  127 Poly Operation

So, was MOTU being unreasonable for leaving out these controllers? I don't think it's a matter of being reasonable, but a matter of obsolescence. MIDI devices generally act as passive receivers when a DAW is involved, so the idea of Channel Mode messages doesn't make as much sense. Granted, anyone can devise a theoretical situation in which you could use them for some imagined effect, but there are always other ways of doing those effects which arguably are much more clear in a sequence, with virtually no possibility of leaving the hardware in a mess for the next sequence, unlike Channel Mode messages. I shudder to think of troubleshooting a sequence filled with such messages.

There are plenty of other available controllers, so I'm not concerned with the last seven, and as stated above, I certainly don't need their functions. I can use DP's All Notes Off command, so I don't need CC#123:0. You'll have to decide for yourself whether these were unreasonably omitted.

Good luck finding a good sequencer that uses those. Seriously, if you need to send those out from your keyboard, use the MIDI Time Piece to distribute them to other hardware. I think it can do so without running them through DP. I've never checked to see if it filters them out, so I may be wrong about that.

All the above are my opinions alone, except as quoted. MOTU may have other reasons for their decisions.

Shooshie

[Shooshie]

PS: Since DP ignores these messages, there is no way to translate other controllers into these; they are simply "Controller non grata" in DP.

Shoosh

[lord funk]

Thanks for the info, Shoosh. Didn't think to look in the Tips Sheet for those details.

Just to be clear: my issue is that I cannot remotely fire DP's 'Stop Sounding MIDI Notes' menu option. If I'm on stage playing my controller away from the host computer, I can't stop stuck MIDI notes without heading over to the computer.

All Notes Off is still an actively used message (has been since 1985). Native Instruments VIs running in standalone mode will receive the message and perform their 'Panic' function. While I totally agree that storing Channel Mode Messages in a MIDI track could lead to a hairy situation, I find it odd that I cannot at least route the message to the hosted instruments in my sequence.

[bayswater]

Did you try adding a MIDI Event that you can send from your controllers to the Panic command in the Commands window?

[lord funk]

Did you try adding a MIDI Event that you can send from your controllers to the Panic command in the Commands window?

No, and that's fantastic! Never knew about that feature. Cool fix.

Edit: works great.

[Shooshie]

Did you try adding a MIDI Event that you can send from your controllers to the Panic command in the Commands window?

Was going to suggest that, but forgot. I probably could have spared a few hundred words if I'd just done that first. It seemed that the situation needed explaining, though. That's one of those areas of MIDI that nobody thinks about anymore, and I'm chock-full of useless MIDI information!

Glad it worked for you, Lord Funk!

Shoosh

[lord funk]

So I spoke a bit too soon. What I thought was working yesterday was actually targeting a VI running as standalone.

This should work… but I have yet to get the Panic command to respond to a MIDI input. Is DP always listening to inputs, or do I have to specify MIDI command messaging on / off somewhere? (User Guide doesn't seem to clarify.) I do have General Master toggled on in the Commands window.

[bayswater]

I think you have to turn on the Master Master too. I temporarily assigned Panic to the lowest note on my keyboard, and it seems to work. You should see the Studio menu header flash when you press the MIDI key. If Master Master is off, it won't flash.

[daniel.sneed]

I think you have to turn on the Master Master too. I temporarily assigned Panic to the lowest note on my keyboard, and it seems to work. [...]

Thanks for this tip. I'm gonna set the never played highest key to Panic.

[lord funk]

I think you have to turn on the Master Master too. I temporarily assigned Panic to the lowest note on my keyboard, and it seems to work. You should see the Studio menu header flash when you press the MIDI key. If Master Master is off, it won't flash.

That did it - thanks!