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Sort of a nu-bee here,. I cant figure out something and am looking for help. Sorry if this is kind of basic - everyone here seems very technical and advanced.
When I set the continuous controller CC 7 to regulate volume for my piano virtual instrument for instance, the volume gets set in 2 places: in the mixer and also on the virtual instrument, so the volume is set twice.
This makes it hard to be consistent because the setting becomes a multiple value that is set in two places. I think it also becomes what is known as a logorithmic interpolation
Is there any way to over-ride the CC 7 data in either the mixer or the virtual instrument?
Thanks for helping me with this. Just geting my feet wet here ...
Yes, if I'm understanding you correctly. It's kind of an unfortunate system, and I believe you're probably speaking about Kontakt, because that's where I'm seeing it. When a VI receives a CC7 message, it's up to the plugin to figure out what to do with it. Many just have a hidden attenuation stage with no control or nob attached to it. The way Kontakt has decided to deal with it, is they've directly linked CC7 to the master volume control for the patch. You can control HOW the data is interpreted with a few settings inside the patch under "Instrument Options", I believe you can set what dB the value 127 represents. Aside from that, it's a product of the VI's system.
But DP can provide an override. If you have no CC7 data on a track, then one would think that as long as you didn't touch the MIDI channel volume fader (which sends CC7), you wouldn't ever have it reset. Unfortunately, with MIDI event chasing, DP will resend the fader value every time you press play. To counter that, go to the "Setup > Event Chasing..." window. Click the "All except..." and add CC7 to the list. This will ensure that DP never sends any CC7 data during play.
What I've done, for the most part, is just blow off the Kontakt volume faders. I usually only use one patch per instance. MIDI volume control is much coarser, having only 127 distinct values, with no interpolation (unless the VI builds in a fade time), so I try to do as much of my volume and pans in the audio realm. I'll pretty much always just slap a trim plugin below the Kontakt instance, and set a unity value that allows the VI track's volume fader to sit nicely at 0, and I move on from there. But if you need to use some multi-patches, or like to group sounds together (I often do this in orchestral templates), yeah, you're going to want to disable MIDI event chasing, or work with the current setup by using the MIDI channel faders to set the patch volumes.
Hi and thanks for your replies! I am using an iMac Intel Core 2 Duo 3.06 GHz OS X 10.8.5 with 16GB RAM and DP 8.0.5 Right now I'm only using CInesamples Piano in Blu and Spitfire Albion, which are both Kontakt instruments. I have the full version of Kontakt and have tried some of the Kontakt Factory Library patches but nothing serious yet.
I'm sort of amazed that I was understood here. The CC#7 issue seems like a no-brainer but I didn't see anything else on the forum about it. I tried the Setup > Event Chasing window and clicking "All except" but every time I open a file Digital Performer sets the volume back to 127, like an initialization reset thing.
I'm wondering if I should just use CC #9 (seeems to be an undefined MIDI controller)and uise MIDI LEarn on the Kontakt instrument to respond to that controller. It looks like I can change most of the basic controllers numbers in Preferences too, which is pretty cool.
Thanks for the help. I seems to be making progress understanding this stuff!
You'll find your own workaround. CC11 is common for adjustment as well. In fact, quite a few VIs have that built in. I believe that you can make Kontakt respond to either 7 or 11 by default. I am not aware of any preference in DP that changes the MIDI faders from CC7, but I might be wrong.
If you plan on doing lots of VI volume automation, I strongly recommend not using any MIDI controller automation at all. Do your volume adjustments on the VI track instead. As I mentioned, MIDI volume is limited to 127 discrete values, so you're likely to get some stair stepping. And, to be honest, audio automation is a lot easier to work with in DP than MIDI Controller data, the fact that MIDI messages are actually specific values and not vector points with interpolation (as audio automation is) makes their editing a little less intuitive.
Eric makes some good points, but I have been using MIDI automation for years to good effect.
To avoid having too many instantiations of Kontakt, I will group some instruments, especially strings, in one instantiation, using the master Kontakt VI fader automation for overall section volume (and fades in exposed passages to avoid the stair-stepping Eric mentions). I use CC11 or CC1 to input dynamics from a foot pedal or mod wheel while recording string lines, then fine-tune relative volume of each part using the MIDI channel fader in DP.
I haven't run into the issue the OP describes, but will check to see what's really going on to make sure I haven't just missed it.
To OP: When working with DP mixer and Kontakt instruments, you must decide the level that the individual instrument responds to when it sees a MIDI volume (cc7) = 127 from DP's mixer or any controller. This is set in the instrument options section of the Kontakt instrument (in db). I'm not talking about the Kontakt mixer faders here. I set those faders at 0 and leave them alone. Yes, using a VI like Kontakt with DP there are many places where "volume" can be adjusted/automated in DP and the Kontakt instrument. You have to pick where you want to automate and how and leave the others at nominal levels.
To be specific to your case, if you want to use DP mixer faders (which output cc7) to control volume in your instrument, you must set the instrument volume to respond to cc7. If you set the instrument volume to cc11 or another, the DP mixer faders do nothing. And if you return the audio output from the instrument to DP via an aux track, you can adjust/automate the return level there as well, as someone already mentioned.
Hope this add to the advice already posted.
Frank Ferrucci
Frank Ferrucci http://www.ferruccimusic.com
Mac Pro 6,1 64gb RAM DP9.52 OSX 10.12.6 MIO 2882d & ULN2d Firewire Audio Interfaces, MOTU MTP-AV USB
Are you guys talking about how CC7 moves both DP mixer fader and Kontakt patch volume fader at the same time?
Aren't they just mirroring each other? If I change the CC number on the Kontakt patch volume fader, the DP MIDI volume fader in the mixer changes too, and vice versa. Never thought of it as an issue.
You can assign a CC, but then go to "Settings.." in the Automation menu, or in the mixer under the pull down menu below the Auto record and play buttons and enable or disable MIDI and Audio volume, which can be overwritten by your assigned slider or knob that you have set for CC7. That's kinda handy in some circumstances. But I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing! Ha.
I'll change the MIDI volume if a patch is overloading in Kontakt, but always automate the instrument track fader or aux fader.
Prime Mover wrote:I am not aware of any preference in DP that changes the MIDI faders from CC7, but I might be wrong.
If you right click on the MIDI fader in the mixer you can assign any CC (or any knob actually) you want. Then the fader responds to two CC numbers. However, in the MIDI window both show up as CC7. So even if I'm using a knob that's been assigned CC83 on my keyboard, it's just moving the MIDI fader and writing CC7.
nightwatch wrote:Aren't they just mirroring each other? If I change the CC number on the Kontakt patch volume fader, the DP MIDI volume fader in the mixer changes too, and vice versa. Never thought of it as an issue.
Not sure what you're getting at, but that doesn't seem possible. The MIDI routing only goes one way, from the MIDI channel to the VI. I'm not aware of any instance where a VI's controls could be used to send automation to a MIDI channel.
nightwatch wrote:So even if I'm using a knob that's been assigned CC83 on my keyboard, it's just moving the MIDI fader and writing CC7.
Sure you knew that.
LOL! Hardly! Look, I use these things the best I can, but I don't pretend to be an expert on all the nuances of the signal routing and setup. I actually do very little controller setup these days. I'm a pretty piss-poor "twiddler" as of late. Most of the stuff I play live requires that I use both hands, usually playing 2-3 patches at a time... so I don't have much chance to do anything other than some expression pedal action and the occasional pitch and mod wheel bends during a solo lead line. I'm working on changing that, but not with the group I currently perform with, so give me some time to get back into it
Thank you everyone for your comments here. I've got things set up nicely now. The mention of stairstepping was useful but I only hear it in the quiet 01-30ish ranges.
Based on comments here I set up more stereo tracks (stems?) for groups of Kontakt instruments and can create some extremely nuanced dynamics. DP lets you control things amazingly well.
This was more complicated that I had thought it would be but I apprecaite everyone's input. It really helped!
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