Ever feel like DP users are a dying breed?

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David Polich
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Re: Ever feel like DP users are a dying breed?

Post by David Polich »

aculver wrote:
David Polich wrote:Wow, I see some very big misconceptions about MOTU and DP here.
Dave, I think the misconception is yours. You seem to be just fine with the status quo. But the premise of this thread is that MOTU and DP have a market problem with younger users. Some posters have attested to that.

It would be great if MOTU's leaders would chime in here and let us know how true that may be. Absent them, I was hoping we could generate some useful suggestions to help our (invisible) friends at MOTU counteract the problem.
Dude...there is no problem. The OP concocted the "problem". And why would you expect someone like Magic Dave to "chime in" and say "oh sure, we know DP doesn't appeal to younger users". Are you serious?

I really have to ask - what axe do you have to grind? Are you angry because
DP isn't more like Ableton Live? Do you wish VI's would load faster? Do you
want more emphasis on grid-based sequencing? What is it about DP itself that
bothers you? Users in the past have posted "wish lists" on this forum and
MOTU has made many of those wishes come true.

And what benefit is it to you, personally, to point out that DP has this
supposed "marketing problem"? I'd really like to know.
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Re: Ever feel like DP users are a dying breed?

Post by Prime Mover »

Whatever validity these concerns may have, they all kind of sink under the reality is that it's working. MOTU have continued to be active, created upgrades at about as frequent as other DAW manufacturers. I'm kind of amazed they CAN do that, seeing as most of their competitors have like 3-5 times the staff, but what can you do? MOTU is just amazing.

Another thing, social media and support? Okay, that's DPs STRONGEST selling point, IMO. Just look at the 'nation. About one post every 10 minutes or so, and pretty much all of them by industry pros and the like who know their ••••.

Meanwhile:
https://discussions.apple.com/community ... /logic_pro

Maybe 2 posts an hour at best, and by their titles, I would have to say that they're mostly by novices who won't be sticking around (either in the forum or the industry). I've come to the conclusion that a good user form is quite possibly a software product's most important asset. I'm not going to go around surfing Steinburg or Avid's forums, but at least I can say that MOTUs is extremely solid.

Yes, I think we would all love to see our favorite DAW mop the floor and for everyone we know to come to their senses, but that doesn't begin to define its success or quality.

MOTU has done so much in the past year-and-a-half to correct pretty much any concerns I had previously. Now is probably the least relevant time to criticize their marketing strategy.
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Re: Ever feel like DP users are a dying breed?

Post by Michael Canavan »

I think MOTU lately has been doing a great job. Unlike some here I don't currently compose for film and I don't think MOTU think that's all you can do with DP or they wouldn't bother with all the guitar plug ins and interviews with people doing live shows.

With that in mind I think they are the only full fledged DAW that can compete with Live for backing tracks, FX etc. for a live show. Saying this, the only thing I think that lags with DP over the competition is time stretching, Logic and Live are vastly improved in this area, and all it would take with MOTU in my opinion is a partnership with IRCAM with DP and not just with MachFive3. :headbang:

In fact besides this I think MOTU are on the right track. It seems to me anyway that hopefully the next upgrade is all refining, which would include making font in the DAW sizable, new time stretch algorithms, and a few other UI things. Beyond that, they definitely should market the fact that it keeps better time code than Logic, that it's a product of years of refinement etc.

Don't know about the "marketing to kids" angle, probably better to target 30 somethings who are tired of the limitations of their current choice. DAWs like Live etc. are going to get the 18-25 crowd mostly because it's seen as "new". Bitwig will probably kill Live to a degree that way.
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Ever feel like DP users are a dying breed?

Post by James Steele »

Prime Mover wrote:I'm not going to go around surfing Steinburg or Avid's forums, but at least I can say that MOTUs is extremely solid.
I have to step in and point out that technically this is not MOTU's forum. This is completely independent and not owned, operated, or controlled by MOTU in any way.

Frankly, I've always thought it said something about how fervent DP's user base is that the user community came together of its own desire and wasn't herded into a corporate-run forum that is controlled by the company.
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Dan Worley
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Ever feel like DP users are a dying breed?

Post by Dan Worley »

James Steele wrote:
Prime Mover wrote:I'm not going to go around surfing Steinburg or Avid's forums, but at least I can say that MOTUs is extremely solid.
I have to step in and point out that technically this is not MOTU's forum. This is completely independent and not owned, operated, or controlled by MOTU in any way.

Frankly, I've always thought it said something about how fervent DP's user base is that the user community came together of its own desire and wasn't herded into a corporate-run forum that is controlled by the company.
:headbang:
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nk_e
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Re: Ever feel like DP users are a dying breed?

Post by nk_e »

David Polich wrote:
aculver wrote:
David Polich wrote:Wow, I see some very big misconceptions about MOTU and DP here.
Dave, I think the misconception is yours. You seem to be just fine with the status quo. But the premise of this thread is that MOTU and DP have a market problem with younger users. Some posters have attested to that.

It would be great if MOTU's leaders would chime in here and let us know how true that may be. Absent them, I was hoping we could generate some useful suggestions to help our (invisible) friends at MOTU counteract the problem.
Dude...there is no problem. The OP concocted the "problem". And why would you expect someone like Magic Dave to "chime in" and say "oh sure, we know DP doesn't appeal to younger users". Are you serious?

I really have to ask - what axe do you have to grind? Are you angry because
DP isn't more like Ableton Live? Do you wish VI's would load faster? Do you
want more emphasis on grid-based sequencing? What is it about DP itself that
bothers you? Users in the past have posted "wish lists" on this forum and
MOTU has made many of those wishes come true.

And what benefit is it to you, personally, to point out that DP has this
supposed "marketing problem"? I'd really like to know.
Dave - why are you amping this up? The above screed reads like an attack. Everyone else here is having a reasonable discussion about a topic that comes up from time to time. Participate. Don't agitate.

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Re: Ever feel like DP users are a dying breed?

Post by nk_e »

There's a bunch of good points here. Not long ago, I would have fervently agreed with the original post. But with the release of DP8, the invigorated YouTube and FB, I think MOTU is trying to reach a broader audience (young and old).

I do think there are a couple of things DP could add that would be helpful in closing perceived gaps without turning it into a poor ABLETON/LOGIC/CUBASE wannabe. The thing I miss the most compared to the others is a bit of object orientation in the way it handles MIDI notes and audio. (Yes there are workarounds, but to me they are cumbersome in comparison.) Someone else mentioned time stretching improvements. There are at most a small handful of others that could be implemented while staying true to DP's strengths and "gestalt" that would at the same time broaden and extend DP's palette to embrace others with different working methods. I don't see what the harm is in that.

The comment about corporate opacity in this age of transparency (my paraphrase) has a bit of traction in my head. Would be nice, maybe even helpful, but it isn't absolutely required for success. MOTU has always been opaque. It's a part of their corporate culture and it's consistency suggests that it starts from the top. I doubt it will change. I'm just appreciative of what they have started to do lately.

Lastly...
aweaselkid wrote:I'm concerned too. I want this product to be around for when I am one of those old, getting-pushed-out-of-the-way-by-some-cocky 20-something-year-old, film composer in my fifties... And to do that, it does need to bridge to the next generation, or the product dies alongside its current users. Basic business.
As an "old composer in his fifties" who is just getting started, that has got to be one of the most depressing things I've ever read. :o

Peace all.

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Re: Ever feel like DP users are a dying breed?

Post by Shooshie »

aweaselkid wrote:Couldn't agree more. I'm in my mid-20's and love DP, but there is a serious issue here. Of course you don't see it if you are in the population MOTU generally tailors and caters too, but marketing, artist-relations wise, PRODUCT TUTORIAL/EDUCATION wise? agreed, too far behind...

If you think about it, what makes it worse is DP is their flagship product, so you'd hope to hell they were hypersensitive about who they should target, how they can market their product, what competitors are doing NOW (instead of saying "we were the hottest girl at the party in 1994..."). Their hardware sucks, because it always breaks, all VIs are UVI based, so what else do they have?

I'm concerned too. I want this product to be around for when I am one of those old, getting-pushed-out-of-the-way-by-some-cocky 20-something-year-old, film composer in my fifties... And to do that, it does need to bridge to the next generation, or the product dies alongside its current users. Basic business.
Frankly, I've never met a cocky 20 something year old who knows even the most basic thing about the basic business of music and entertainment, so my recommendation is not to worry about such things. You'll learn that stuff as you get deeper in the business, and you'll find that it doesn't really matter what DAW you use. There is no DAW drama unfolding here. People are simply using tools they like to create stuff that matters to them, or for which they are being paid.

Wannabes like to make a big deal about tools, as if they bestow legitimacy on you. As a pro, I had to defend my choice of tools to people who wrote my checks. They were smart people — smart enough to do their due diligence upon hiring me — but not smart enough to understand what makes a musician "good." So, they'd call their friends who had invested in albums that had made it big and asked what tools their engineers used. The answer was always "Pro Tools, of course!" Some went so far as to say "if your guy is using anything but Pro Tools, you can't really take him seriously."

Finally, I asked them to take one of our songs to a studio and try doing it in Pro Tools. Long story short, they spent 4 days mixing it and didn't get finished. A friend dropped the 90% finished track off for me to listen to. I sat down at DP and mixed it in 4 hours, finishing the ideas they had started, and making it kick-ass in all the ways they were attempting, but taking it to a higher level. I copied their EQ, compression, and other effects by ear. It took just four hours, and I finished it, then left it on the desk of my employer.

Next day I heard from them. They couldn't believe what I did. They couldn't believe that after 4 days they had nothing complete to show for their expensive studio time. I explained to them "it's not the tool that matters. It's the person using it."

This was similar to several other such tests that happened over the years, and always with the same result: my employers always agreed never to bother me about my choice of tools again, and apologized profusely for ever doubting me.

One other such test was a double-blind shootout between DP and another DAW. With a panel of judges who were all music and audio professionals in Las Vegas, my work in DP easily won unanimously. Unanimously. Did you get that? Everybody chose DP. Recently, our friend RadioGal did the same thing in a very prestigious group of audio professionals in Sweden. Same result: they chose DP.

So, allowing for the fact that we all doubt ourselves from time to time, and we all doubt our software and hardware from time to time, the truth is that there isn't any basis for concern here. DP is quietly a leader among DAWs. Professionals use whatever they want to use. Many of us choose DP exclusively. Those who don't, have their reasons. All valid. It doesn't matter if they choose something else.

DP was designed for the classic MacOS. It took years to make it work fluently and efficiently with OSX, but now we've finally gotten over not only the transition to OSX, but also to Intel, and now to 64 bits and the Cocoa programming environment. (Not to mention its new availability for PC) Cocoa makes future improvements 10 times easier, so that adding new features and testing are much faster even for multiple platforms. We've already seen evidence of that. DP is on a roll, and many new users have come over to it. We're seeing growth, not shrinkage, of the user base.

The popular press and rumor mills aren't as influential as they think they are. They can trash DP forever, but people who use it know WHY they use it. We all can go out and buy Logic, Live, Reason, Pro Tools, or anything else any time we want to. I own Logic Studio. But it only reinforces why I use DP: it simply fits me better than any of the others.

Believe what you want, but I'm here to tell you that this is a non-problem. A Non-issue.

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Re: Ever feel like DP users are a dying breed?

Post by nk_e »

What Shooshie said.

Definitive. End of story.

Should be plastered on MOTU's site!

Well met sir!

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Re: Ever feel like DP users are a dying breed?

Post by James Steele »

aweaselkid wrote:Their hardware sucks, because it always breaks....
With all due respect, that claim is ridiculous.
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Re: Ever feel like DP users are a dying breed?

Post by aculver »

Score to date...

There's a problem: 4 posters
There's no problem: 11 posters

27% say there's a problem...

...on a forum of devoted users.

Draw you own conclusions.
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Re: Ever feel like DP users are a dying breed?

Post by Shooshie »

James Steele wrote:
aweaselkid wrote:Their hardware sucks, because it always breaks....
With all due respect, that claim is ridiculous.
No kidding! I look up in my rack here above my desk, and I see a serial port MIDI Timepiece AV from the mid 1990s, a USB MTP-AV from 2001, a 2408 mkII from the late 1990s, a 1296 from 2001, and an 896 from 2002. All are over 10 years old, and some are getting close to 20. They look and perform like new. I had to change the fan in one of them about 5 years ago, but that's ALL.

I've bought similar hardware for many clients and friends. Same thing: it always works.

I'm sure I could break them if I tried, but it wouldn't be easy, and it wouldn't happen with the first blow! These things are tough, and I've traveled a lot with some of them.

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Dan Worley
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Re: Ever feel like DP users are a dying breed?

Post by Dan Worley »

aculver wrote:Score to date...

There's a problem: 4 posters
There's no problem: 11 posters

27% say there's a problem...

...on a forum of devoted users.

Draw you own conclusions.
My conclusion is you exhibit troll-like behavior.

If you want change, do something positive, make your suggestions for new and improved features and explain how that will help most people's workflows, not just your own. DP can not be everything to all users. It's impossible.
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Re: Ever feel like DP users are a dying breed?

Post by stubbsonic »

Comparison of DP to other DAWs is certainly a worthwhile analysis. And there are different factors that have been raised:

1. Learning curve.

2. Overall interface/workflow.

3. Feature-set.

Though the learning curve is a factor for many, there is a diminishing return when you have such a shallow learning curve that the software can't deliver for more complex projects. Garageband has a shallow learning curve, but can't compare to a more full-featured DAW.

Interface & workflow is partly about design, partly about configurability, and is related to the array of different types of music and processes that people use. It is difficult for one piece of software to be all things for all people.

The feature set has two phases there is the "curb appeal" when one is reading about the many sexy features of a DAW as they decide which one to choose. Then there is the practical side of the features that are immediately applicable in current projects and workflow.

When I was younger and choosing tools, I asked lots of questions and always wanted to get the right synth or software based on my own unique interests and needs and not what the crowd was doing (necessarily).

The other factor which has little to do with the DAW is how the user is wired. Logic (the abstract quality, not the software), Creativity, Patience, Discipline, Attention-span, Intelligence, Forgiveness, Curiosity, Open-mindedness, Playfulness, Aggressiveness, etc. etc., are all qualities that will affect the way a person approaches this work. Different combinations of traits will click differently with different software.

So for example, one DAW might be better for people with no patience. Another might be better for someone who has no time to study documentation.

I have learned a great deal about music and the artistic process from the way DP works. I agree that it is great the DP didn't dumb it down. It is deep. Though I have my criticisms of DP, it is the hands down winner for my work.

How to communicate the strengths of DP to younger artists is challenging. I think showing the various major film productions that DP was used on is helpful. I think some of the press in the magazines has been great. I think that a presence in some music & audio production schools is also important. Perhaps more of those YouTube "shootouts" would be helpful as well.
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Re: Ever feel like DP users are a dying breed?

Post by billf »

aculver wrote:Score to date...

There's a problem: 4 posters
There's no problem: 11 posters

27% say there's a problem...

...on a forum of devoted users.

Draw you own conclusions.
My conclusion is that for now, I will assume you are not a troll and will assume you have some constructive feedback. If so, MOTU has a suggestion contact page, and they will likely be happy to hear your good ideas and solutions to your perception of what you assume to be business problems:

http://www.motu.com/other/feedback/suggestions
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