Drum sampler decision, help (big philisophical struggle)

[stickwolf]

I'm really stuck with this one. My background is not as a drummer, I'm a guitarist, singer, sorta-keyboardist, composer, etc. I'm no generic singer/songwriter. My background is classical guitar and I also play Chapman Stick and have a music degree. I am a theory geek and love both world music and electro-acoustic experimental stuff.

Big question is what should my involvement with drums/percussion be?
I did three albums that used primarily GM drums and I programmed every subtlety note for note. I was very proud of what I did and got very good at being creative and expressive with the programmed drums. A far cry from people who just run a preset drum machine behind their tracks.

But I recognized that GM drums really don't cut it in the real world. And after playing in a band seriously for a couple years I am more aware of the subtleties of live drums.

So do I just leave out drums for the most part in my productions until I either learn to play myself (would take years based on my high standards) or collaborate with a real drummer? Or do I do the same programming that I did before but get better sounding equipment?

I'm very hesitant to consider loops as I generally want less pre-done music. I want to be able to say that I created all the music or that a collaborator helped, not that I used some preset thing I bought. But where do I draw the line? In some ways, a sampled drum set or even virtual instrument presets are done by someone else. Or even my guitar was built by someone else. I have to be reasonable about where to draw the line.

Fact is, I'm very percussive and rhythmically oriented in my music focus, and I've got lots of rhythmic ideas that don't happen to coincide with standard beats. I own the LM4 plugin (doesn't work in OSX though) and the expanded Wizoo drum sample kits. I have never used loops or even preset grooves (besides just swing offset amount). I recognize the significant value and great results these can bring, so I am not rejecting them outright. I'm just hesitant.

I've looked into Battery 2 and Linplug LM IV primarily because they are simple drum samplers only and they both will import the LM4 samples I already own. But I'm not sure. I've heard about the Fxpansion BFD and the Drums From Hell stuff.

I just don't know what to do, and whether to allow myself to use more preset stuff like grooves or beats or loops. Or whether to forget it all, just get whatever I need to do simple recordings for possible clients and spend my time focusing on vocals, composing, Stick, guitar, and mixing and just have drum-less productions for the most part. To a degree, restrictions can set you free of course...

I guess when I really think about it, I think about some of my favorite music, for example: the Deep Forest albums Boheme and Comparsa. These albums use studio sampled drums of some sort, not live drums (if anyone knows more specifically I'm curious), but they sound great. They didn't worry about creating the exact sound of a live drummer. Instead they worked to be musical and fit the composition. I doubt they used any preset beats or loops really. Anyway, I'd like to be able to do stuff like that. I don't want to fool people. I have no interest in making you believe it was a live drummer when it wasn't. But again, I have very significant drum/percussive ideas and creative perspective and I want to make music that includes that and sounds good (not like a cheap GM keyboard).

I'd appreciate any thoughts or discussion. Among everything, I'm specifically looking for recommendations on tools. RM IV? Battery? Others? Yes? No?

Thanks so much. This is the last thing I'm trying to decide regarding getting my new studio / toolbox acquired. When this is decided I can finally put my mind into making and recording music.

-Aaron

[David Polich]

Use whatever you want, do whatever you want. No one can make a decision for you.

If you use samples and are good at programming, and it sounds realistic, then nobody will care how you did it. No, make that, whatever you do, nobody will care. It isn't what you use to create, it's what you create.

If you're unhappy with the way your programmed drum tracks sound, then for yourself, you'll need to address that.

The other answer I'd give is, how much do you have budgeted for drum libraries or apps? Many users here use a variety and combination of things. I use fxpansion's BFD, Stylus RMX, Battery 2, Absynth, Reaktor, a V-synth and a Yamaha Motif ES to construct various parts of drum and percussion tracks. I don't use any one thing exclusively. And honesty, I can't recommend any single thing for drums and percussion.

[chrispick]

Well, certainly, collaborating with a live drummer will give you the greatest amount of percussive nuance and finesse, so that's the optimal choice, provided recording it is a task taken care of.

However, if that approach doesn't work well in your current production process, you do have alternatives which can work well.

If you have a rudimentary or better knowledge of drum kit arrangements, you can get great sounds out of applications like BFD, Drumkit from Hell, Battery, Stylus and Reason. You certainly wouldn't have to learn how to play a kit in full.

All of the above apps have pre-fab beat sequences and fills as well as one-hits -- some MIDI, some loops -- allowing you a lot of flexibility.

FWIW: I mix and match a lot of sounds to get the vibe I want. For example, I use BFD primarily for studio-recorded kit sounds, then often augment that with sounds from Reason, Stormdrum (which ships with some kit sounds) and few, odd one-hits I've collected and loaded into my MachFive sampler. I'm usually pleased with the results.

Help any?

[Spikey Horse]

I would recommend FXpansion's 'BFD'.

As a live acoustic drummer who usually finds nothing exiting to say about sampled (acoustic) kits I love this one! There is nothing else that comes as close to the expression you can get with BFD. As well as between 40 - 128 velocity layers per kit piece you have total control over the direct, OH, room ,pzm channel levels (all individually assignable to separate outputs, or groups or just stereo)

fxpansion.com

[David Polich]

Well okay, that's true. BFD is unrivalled to my ears as well. I've had four excellent drummers ask who my drummer was on tracks I did with BFD.
Never had that happen with any other drum apps. And the upcoming BFD Deluxe supplement recorded by Steve Albini will totally rule.

It's a common-sense approach - BFD for acoustic kit sounds, Stylus RMX for loop stuff and lo-fi, Battery 2 for percussion or exotic sounds or drum and percussion "ear candy", Reaktor and Absynth for electronic drums.

[stickwolf]

Fair enough. Fact is, it's hard for one person to master everything.

I'm not asking anyone to tell me what I want, I'm asking that if you understand what I want, maybe you can tell me whether the RM IV (for example) fits my description of what I'm looking for.

But I take it, nothing is quite that simple. Still, I have to start somewhere. I don't have a budget to just get it all.

Here's the deal: I'm happy with the beats that I've programmed, but with the GM keyboard sounds, I'm not satisfied with the resulting sound quality.

When I bought the LM4, I was much happier with results I got using that. So while I might always have room for improvement, I felt overall good with the LM4. So to start with, what would be the best replacement for the LM4?

[Also a side note, I'm not sure about the term "realistic" as you (David) used it for my purposes. Yes, drum sounds may inspire a listener to imagine an actual drummer playing, but really the idea is for it to be "good" not "realistic." There's nothing any more or less "realistic" about these different sounds coming out of these paper cones on my shelf. All the sounds I'm hearing are real sounds.]

[stickwolf]

Ok, thanks so far. That's useful.

I'm interested if someone wants to discuss the value of using loops or predone beats, but right now I'm still quite against that.

What I'm hearing is that BFD is the best virtual drum-kit but Battery is more like the LM4 and is basically better for all sorts of percussive-style sounds and electro-acoustic stuff... That sound right? How about Linplug's RM IV? It looks to be comparable to Battery, but looks easier to use and seems like it is more currently supported... Also, how do the included samples in Battery vs. RM IV sound? And does BFD include much in the way of esoteric percussion (or even normal percussion like latin, african, or country style percussion)?

[chrispick]

Ok, thanks so far. That's useful.

I'm interested if someone wants to discuss the value of using loops or predone beats, but right now I'm still quite against that.

What I'm hearing is that BFD is the best virtual drum-kit but Battery is more like the LM4 and is basically better for all sorts of percussive-style sounds and electro-acoustic stuff... That sound right? How about Linplug's RM IV? It looks to be comparable to Battery, but looks easier to use and seems like it is more currently supported... Also, how do the included samples in Battery vs. RM IV sound? And does BFD include much in the way of esoteric percussion (or even normal percussion like latin, african, or country style percussion)?

re: value of loops and predone beats --

I program all of my drum parts -- I have some percussion skills -- but I still find loops, loop slices and prefab beats useful. For instance, sometimes I'll layer some vinyl loops under a primary percussion track to give it texture and feel. Or I'll extract a loop slice and put it up front for an "artificial" or "obviously sampled" moment in a song. If nothing else, prefab material can allow you build percussion tracks in non-conventional ways with a little imagination.

And, If you have trouble creating authentic-feeling fills, supplied MIDI fills can be helpful templates or springboards.

re: BFD auxillary percussion --

BFD has some add-on modules that'll give you more aux percussion and kit piece options. Check their site.

re: RM IV vs. Battery --

RM VI is less expensive and sounds accordingly IMO. Still, it might fit your budget and sound palette.

[mikebeckmotu]

I've struggled with the drumming issue somewhat over the past few years, as I was getting tired of the drum loop CDs. I recently started using the $50 iDrum app to quickly sketch ideas, and BFD to do the so-called real drum parts. It's a pretty amazing set of tools, and I only hope I am able to get skilled enough at it to make it sound like a real drummer. iDrum is extremely quick and easy, and you can use their supplied sounds and patterns or your own. You can use it as a virtual instrument or in standalone mode you can bounce an AIFF (stereo or multi) or MIDI out of it. Anyway, hope this helps in some way.

[oldguitars]

work with a drummer, that way it will always sound fresh and original (depending on the drummer . use a samples to sketch out ideas. I am sure i am not helping, it is just my .02

[Tonio]

I'm really stuck with this one.
Fact is, I'm very percussive and rhythmically oriented in my music focus, and I've got lots of rhythmic ideas that don't happen to coincide with standard beats.
I guess when I really think about it, I think about some of my favorite music, for example: the Deep Forest albums Boheme and Comparsa. These albums use studio sampled drums of some sort, not live drums (if anyone knows more specifically I'm curious), but they sound great. They didn't worry about creating the exact sound of a live drummer. Instead they worked to be musical and fit the composition. I doubt they used any preset beats or loops really. Anyway, I'd like to be able to do stuff like that.
-Aaron

Aaron, the above snippage may help you decide what you really need/want. From what I've heard of the Deep forest albums you speak of seems to be mostly a drum kit within the trip hop/whatever its called style beats.Not really acoustic drum kit IMO. Also with some various ethnic percussion from various countries.sounds like samples to me. I could be wrong, but sounds like manipulated loops and/or hits from sound libraries.
I played a few years with a stick player, that had very strong percussive considerations also, that came from a metal/rock influence. Stick player, guitar and me on percussion. Not that matters. Just my interest in the stick's sounds /textures in general.
Why not collaborate with your bands drummer?, if you want real drums. Though it may be counter productive from what you describe.

T

[stickwolf]

Thanks for the encouragement. My band (www.darktownsaints.com) is a very neat project (revolutionary almost if I might be so bold), but isn't really where I'm headed in the long run musically.

The drummer is into Weezer and Better Than Ezra and Foo Fighters and 90's alt-rock stuff. I'm into what I might call electro-acoustic-world-fusion. He's actually very open minded, and I can appreciate the stuff he likes too. But it just isn't realistic for our time commitments and personal directions to work together. We also have very different ways of working.

Anyway, I might work with a percussionist if I meet the right person at some point.

For now, you're basically correct: I appreciate the function of traditional drum set sounds, but I'm not so focused on acoustic, realistic drums, but rather just great beats and creative control. I like Aphex Twin and Prodigy too. On the other side of things, I love the sparse but extremely effective percussion on many Simon & Garfunkel and Paul Simon solo recordings. Or another of my list of the best produced albums ever: Tracy Chapman's self titled debut.

So yeah, I'm looking for neat sounds / world percussion / drum set sounds that may be but aren't necessarily acoustic or realistic. And I'm looking for them to be QUALITY (not like my old cheap keyboard), and I want to have significant creative control over how they are used.

Thanks for helping me define my goal. Would Battery be the best tool for this goal? Given that I can't afford to get everything out there...
Should I consider getting a pro sampler of some other sort? The best sample stuff seems way past my current budget. I own a copy of VSamp currently (though I haven't used it since a couple versions ago).

-Aaron

[chrispick]

I appreciate the function of traditional drum set sounds, but I'm not so focused on acoustic, realistic drums, but rather just great beats and creative control. I like Aphex Twin and Prodigy too. On the other side of things, I love the sparse but extremely effective percussion on many Simon & Garfunkel and Paul Simon solo recordings. Or another of my list of the best produced albums ever: Tracy Chapman's self titled debut. Yeah, I'm looking for neat sounds / world percussion / drum set sounds that may be but aren't necessarily acoustic or realistic. And I'm looking for them to be QUALITY (not like my old cheap keyboard), and I want to have significant creative control over how they are used.

If this is the case, then I'd recommend Battery 2, Reason or Stylus RMX. Lots of good-quality sounds. Not limited to emulating real-world drum kit recording techniques.

Myself, I use Reason for this kind of stuff.

[justinentz]

hi this is the conclusion that i came to with the problem of drum sound although not the cheapest. no matter what i have done i could not get the right (big studio/album) drum sound out of two bedroom my home studio, live drums did not cut it and drum machines etc sounded fake so i bought one of the cheaper set of v drums and bfd and it has been worth every penny(a bit under $1500) and i am also a music major so i have one of my music major drummer freinds play the damn things if you also have a drum module and triggers on a acoustic set you can do the same but not as good as v-drums i am sure alot if not most people on this board are home recordist/or semi-pro this is the best thing you can do for your sound on drums if you record at home or in a space not designed for recording, period. this has been the best money spent over any mic, mic pre, or out board gear/plug-in, i have bought ,and i have some decent gear

[MT]

You may want to check into Toontrack's DFHS. I can't imagine having any more control or realism. Simply superb, unprocessed samples.

MT