Basic Question Re Live Performance

[gspin]

Sorry if this should be obvious, but I am trying to get a feel for how people use their plugins, softsythns etc. in a live performance setting with DP.

Assume you have a bunch of softsynths and plugins organized in presets that you want to use live. How do you recall these in real time? I am not planning to use sequences, but to skip from preset to preset much like I would do with a workstation.

Any advice would be much appreciated

gspin

[daniel.sneed]

Multiple instances of VIs set on as many tracks as needed (in a single sequence), and arming the desired tracks thru a Novation Autopap master keyboard.

Or a single instance of VI on as many sequences as needed, and jumping between sequences with any MIDI controller, such as Keith Mc Millen SoftStep.

I've done this in DP for years. Never a glitch.

[gspin]

Many thanks Daniel.
Interestingly, Automap seems to have less compatibility with DP than with other DAWs (Logic Ableton...). If it is an issue of arming/disarming individual VIs in DP wouldn't any other MIDI controller suffice (e.g., a foot controller in which one of the pedals is assigned to scrolling down DPs tracks)?
Also, I suppose I could use Nocturn + Automap + a separate MIDI keyboard? (I need to cut down the shipping weight of my gear so I would prefer to use an 88-key MIDI controller that is readily available (i.e. is easy to rent) in most locations.)

Many thanks for the advice

gspin

[daniel.sneed]

On this board, FM Miguelez reported troubles switching between banks with Automap.
I never went into this, for my setups never got over 8 VIs in a single sequence.

I understand your will to go as simple as possible on stage.
Maybe I'm lucky to feel comfortable playing the Novation SLmkII 49 keys, and sometimes even the 25. I've had a Novation 61 keys before.

And, in my studio, still play a Studiologic VMK 161+, which is by far my preferred hammer touch.

[David Polich]

I use DP for sequences playback live, but I don't run any VI's inside it.
Just audio tracks, and a click going out a separate output that feeds the drummer's headphones. I use two to four hardware keyboards live and jam along
on those as the sequences play back.

[gspin]

Or a single instance of VI on as many sequences as needed, and jumping between sequences with any MIDI controller, such as Keith Mc Millen SoftStep.

I've done this in DP for years. Never a glitch.

Hmm... is there no way of switching between sequences with a normal MIDI keyboard? Can you point me in the right direction as to how you switch between sequences in general with a MIDI controller (i.e., even with a Softstep... )?

Many thanks

[James Steele]

Look in the Commands Window. Also, it seems like we're trying to press a DAW into service as something it really isn't. Is there not software for live performances that is better suited to this purpose?

[David Polich]

Look in the Commands Window. Also, it seems like we're trying to press a DAW into service as something it really isn't. Is there not software for live performances that is better suited to this purpose?

James, I totally agree. I get the feeling so many people are looking for
an "Ableton Performer", or "MainDigitalPerformerStage".

That said, to answer the question about selecting sequences from a MIDI keyboard - no, not possible. But it is easily done by assigning a Mac key to a sequence (chunk). Open the "Commands" window and scroll down to
the "Chunk Selection" which is right below "Bounce Settings". Here, you
can assign any Mac key to call up a chunk (you have to have created the Chunks first, of course).

In fact, the number of things you can assign to a Mac key or combination of
Mac keys is truly mind-boggling, and MOTU has expanded that list of things with DP 8 to include more operations than were available in previous versions of DP.

Now, here's where I have to say that, IMO, for live performance it's really best to have at least two hardware keyboards, one of them being a workstation (Yamaha Motif, Korg Kronos, Kurzweil PC3X, etc.) with multi-timbral capability, and a laptop running sequences. Trying to make it all work with VI's triggered from a little MIDI controller is a nice idea, but seriously, I've never seen that work well on tours.

[FMiguelez]

On this board, FM Miguelez reported troubles switching between banks with Automap.

They were not really "troubles" but annoyance

I mean, it works fine, but from a workflow PoV, it's a disaster when you have hundreds of tracks because switching linearly by banks of 8 is simply ridiculous. Also, if at any point, you change the track order in the TO, the banks readjust too, so you never know in which bank x track is now.

For me, this is only acceptable when dealing with a handful of tracks. It works with lots of tracks too, but it's totally undesirable in terms of workflow. But the keyboard and its software work fine, never the less...

I do wish the Novation automatically jumped to the right bank by record-enabling a track in the TO. THAT would at least make up a little for this bank inconvenience.

[gspin]

Just to give more perspective: the live performance I am talking about is a musical score for a silent film to be performed live, in sync with the picture. This means:

1) Pre-programmed sequences are out because it is very hard to get a silent film to be projects at the same speed (frames/sec) so you are very likely to find that your pre-written sequence will drift out of sync;

2) Being film music of a particular sort, it will be very minimal, with few instruments layered at one time.

3) Venues are all over the place (Finland, Brazil, Italy, U.S., etc.) and budgets are low, hence the setup has to be either very compact or very rentable on the spot, or both.

Thanks for all the suggestions

cheers

[rnappi]

If I'm understanding correctly, you can't use genlocked audio so you're going to play each cue live and you want to utilize different patches and plugs as you move between cues.

If this is the case, all you need to do is make each cue it's own chunk, load your VIs into V-Racks and assign Chunk Selection in the Commands Window to whatever notes on your MIDI controller that you want.

You can rapidly move between chunks without a computer keypad and by using V-Racks, you don't need to wait for samples to load, your instruments will be available immediately as you switch between cues.


rich

[Shooshie]

Some things to remember re: live performance and DP:

1) Time is your enemy. It takes time to open files. You don't want to close a sequence and open another. We use Chunks for that, and that's arguably why most people who use DP live chose it in the first place. A Chunk is a sequence. One file can hold as many chunks as your memory allows. I have no idea what the limit is. I'm not sure anyone has ever FOUND the limit. I've had in excess of 50 Chunks in one file. I've heard of others who had a hundred.

2) Time is your enemy. You do not want to open VIs while performing. A better implementation of VIs, IMO, is to use V-Racks to hold all your open VIs. All sequences will use the instruments in the V-Rack as if they were regular external MIDI boxes. In other words, you just go to the MIDI-Output menu and locate the desired VI, which is already loaded into the V-Rack and ready to go, just as if it were a MIDI box in your rack. A MIDI track, already configured for that instrument, goes live as soon as you record-enable it. Most multiple-timbre VIs now allow for individual outputs for each timbre. That is, for each instrument set up within that instance of the VI. So, you can have up to, say, 16 outs. Some do 17. Some do 64 (Mach 5). It is often better to use another instance of the VI rather than to load it up with many instruments and outputs.

VIs in a V-Rack cannot use track automation, but most of them will automate most or all of their controls with MIDI controllers (mod wheels, pedals, faders, breath control, ribbons, and so forth)

It is better to have tracks set up with the plugins and VIs that you want to use, and rather than open plugins or VIs, or even rather than switching presets, just have a track waiting with that plugin, VI, and Preset all open. Just record-enable the track and you've got your setup ready to go.

Using DP is far from the perfect way to control things live on stage, but there are not many better options, if any. Oddly, nobody has completely come to understand what we need when performing live -- the ability to open our DAW-of-choice's files, engage instruments, plugins and presets at will, jump to cue points, sync with the band or go rogue and play out of sync, (in other words, follow their tempos or forget their tempos), and a number of other chores, all of which must happen instantly and be readily accessible through commands sent from our MIDI instruments. Gee, it's such a simple thing, I just don't know why nobody has conquered that market in the 30-odd years we've been doing this with MIDI and computers. (sarcasm)

No, the truth is that it's a VERY difficult thing to conquer. People use DP because it offers a lot of what we need without much extra fuss. Again, far from perfect. The trick is learning to work around its deficiencies. You set up your tracks and sequences and presets in advance, and you switch between waiting presets and just make it seem like that was totally your off-the-wall choice of the moment. A successful player knows that it's all in the preparation.

I repeat: it's all in the preparation. And eliminate EVERYTHING that is not NECESSARY. The simplest file will be the most reliable one. If you load every sound you own into a zillion presets and tracks, you might get that to work reliably, or you might crater in front of 20,000 people.

That said, in the 20-odd years that I was using DP live, I NEVER had a failure. Not even a hiccough. A few wrong moves by yours truly, which can scare the bejezus out of you until you get it back where it's supposed to be, but DP did what it was told 100% of the time. I had a redundant system ready to go at all times, but it never was triggered. I watched lighting board failures, sound-board failures, instrument failures (not mine), monitor failures, and power failures, but never in the history of my live performance did DP fail. Never.

Granted, those were simpler days. But the principles remain: prepare, simplify, eliminate excess, and prepare again.

Shooshie

[Dan Worley]

If I'm understanding correctly, you can't use genlocked audio so you're going to play each cue live and you want to utilize different patches and plugs as you move between cues.

If this is the case, all you need to do is make each cue it's own chunk, load your VIs into V-Racks and assign Chunk Selection in the Commands Window to whatever notes on your MIDI controller that you want.

You can rapidly move between chunks without a computer keypad and by using V-Racks, you don't need to wait for samples to load, your instruments will be available immediately as you switch between cues.


rich

Beauty.
+1

[Dan Worley]

Some things to remember re: live performance and DP: ...

Stellar.
+1

[gspin]

Some things to remember re: live performance and DP:

Wow. Just the advice I was looking for (in addition to the other posts... all very helpful).

Thanks a ton.

P.S. is your live piano sound of choice Ivory 2 or do you use something else?