Logic Pro 9 or XLogic Users Please Help!

[Clueless-Doofus]

I've been a Logic user since 1992 (Emagic Logic 2.0).
I've decided to abandon Logic because over the last 3.5 years since Logic Pro 9 was released, in my opinion Apple has demonstrated that it has no interest in the serious continued robust development of Logic into the future. Since Apple has chosen to abandon Logic, I've finally decided that its time now for me to abandon Logic.

I'm now in the process of deciding btw. going with Cubase 7 or DP8 for my Mac based DAW. I see some pros and cons in both apps. For the last month I've been trying to wrap my head around DP8 which seem SUPER POWERFUL. But I have some questions, that I'm hoping those here who have used Logic for "MANY YEARS" in a pro studio environment can help me with. Here are some initial questions I have.

1) In Logic, one can have virtually unlimited number of "individual" MIDI sequences or "individual" audio regions all residing on the same track. Is this possible in DP8?

2) In Logic, one can can click one letter on the keyboard and immediately in the sidebar, all playback and track parameter pop up in an instant and are ready to go to work on any sequence or audio region. Does DP8 offer something like this?

3)In Logic, one can point and click on any given MIDI sequence or audio region and easily rearrange, move, copy, paste any MIDI sequences and/or audio regions (one or dozens at the same time) anywhere in the arrangement by simply click and drag or copy/paste in a matter of 2 or 3 seconds. Great for building arrangements and rearranging content on the fly. Does DP8 offer something like this?

4) Does DP8 have a feature whereby one can organize, arrange and group MIDI sequences and/or audio regions and into a folder? Single folders, multiple folders, embedded folders?

Please check out these 2 short video clips I made that demonstrate the questions I'm asking about above. As I said I'm just now trying to explore DP8 and I'm oblivious and clueless about DP8. But based on my initial trek into DP8, I've been looking for similar features as shown in the videos clips but can't find then. MAybe they are there in DP8 somewhere and I just can't find them. If they're don't exist in DP, I'm hoping MOTU will considering adding them in the near future.

If any of you are long time Logic users, could you help clue me in on whether DP8 has the same or similar features as demonstrated in the video clips below? Thanks so much for your advise and help in advance.

http://youtu.be/rcqt1wYqo_o

http://youtu.be/049isQH7hEM

[bdr]

Dear Mr Doofus,

I had a quick look at your video. After 3 minutes it seemed to me that you possibly hadn't looked at DP at all, or if so, in a very very cursory way. The tracks window contains all the track info. You can use consolidated windows which allow you to have many useful element sitting by to the left or right of the tracks window. You can do all that stuff, just in a different way.
That is why it isn't Logic.
The only thing (up to the 3 minute mark) that DP cannot do is different types of non-destructive quantization in the same track. There is a non destructive quantise plugin that you put in the channels strip (as well as transpose plugin, time shift etc etc).

Have a good look at this
http://www.motu.com/products/software/dp/features.html
you may find some useful info.

[bdr]

As for your second video, no ,DP does not use regions (what you call 'sequences'). So really, if they are essential to your workflow you should look at Logic again or maybe Cubase. But if you want great things like V-racks, and 'chunks' and a zillion times better audio editing workspace and to not have to tear you hair out trying to automate and use multi-timbral instruments, then get your demo of DP and get stuck into it.

Personally I've never understood regions, my students use Logic so I have to have a passing familiarity with it, but they really confuse me, what is the point? When they overlap sometimes notes play, sometimes not. You double click on one to edit it but you cant see overlapping notes. Darn annoying!

[Clueless-Doofus]

One needs to insert a plugin just to apply simple things like quantize and transpose??? Wow! And the plugin is "DESTRUCTIVE"? WOW again! That's a very counter productive and cumbersome approach to do something so elementary and something that is frequently needed.

Being able to apply new and change existing playback parameters (quantize, transpose, delays, loops, q-swings, velocity, etc, etc) on the fly in a matter of 1 - 2 seconds, without having to go sifting thru window menus for plugins that make "DESTRUCTIVE" changes to MIDI is something that DP really needs add in DP.

[bayswater]

One needs to insert a plugin just to apply simple things like quantize and transpose??? Wow! And the plugin is "DESTRUCTIVE"? WOW again! That's a very counter productive and cumbersome approach to do something so elementary and something that is frequently needed.

Being able to apply new and change existing playback parameters (quantize, transpose, delays, loops, q-swings, velocity, etc, etc) on the fly in a matter of 1 - 2 seconds, without having to go sifting thru window menus for plugins that make "DESTRUCTIVE" changes to MIDI is something that DP really needs add in DP.

Some time browsing the manual might help. No you don't need to use a plugin to quantize or transpose. If you do use the plugin, the effect is not destructive. If you use a command it is.

This site shows how to do basic stuff in DP.

http://en.wikiaudio.org/Category:Digital_Performer

I moved from Cubase and Logic to DP for the things DP does, not for the things it doesn't do. I was used to the features you mention, and if they were added to DP, that would be fine. But there's not much DP doesn't do, it just does them differently.

If the specific features you mention in Cubase and Logic are DP deal killers, you should stick with them. While things might have improved, my experience was that Cubase runs poorly on a Mac. It was obviously ported from Windows, and ported badly, even to the point of getting occasional Windows error message dialog boxes in German. Some features listed on the box were simply missing in the Mac version.

As for Logic, Apple has reported repeatedly that version 10 is in development. Arguably, it has the largest user base of any DAW, and it's hard to imagine Apple has or will abandon it.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Without getting into the obvious misinformation contained above (like quantize has to be destructive, for one) my suggestion is simple. Since there is so much you don't like about DP just go get yourself another app and find your bliss. Stop wasting your time and ours moaning about things you don't actually understand and haven't taken the time to adequately investigate or explore.

[Gravity Jim]

Also, you like Logic? You want a new DAW that works just like it? You're out of luck. If Logic runs great and is awesome and does everything you want it to do, chucking it for something else because you believe (with no actual information but the Internet echo chamber, I might add) that Apple has "abandoned" it is kind of dumb. I mean, it still works now, right?

So, do whatever you want. But these "hand grenade down the mine shaft" threads are worthless.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Fire in the hole...

[bralston]

One needs to insert a plugin just to apply simple things like quantize and transpose??? Wow! And the plugin is "DESTRUCTIVE"? WOW again! That's a very counter productive and cumbersome approach to do something so elementary and something that is frequently needed.

ummm......NO. None of that is true and not really what you were told.

Being able to apply new and change existing playback parameters (quantize, transpose, delays, loops, q-swings, velocity, etc, etc) on the fly in a matter of 1 - 2 seconds, without having to go sifting thru window menus for plugins that make "DESTRUCTIVE" changes to MIDI is something that DP really needs add in DP.

Like the CC data below a MIDI track in the sequence window? The one that takes a couple seconds to access and is visible the entire time?

DP is a deep MIDI sequencer program that can not only do all things that are standard for DAWs but is feature rich and the most customizable DAW of all the DAWs. To ask someone to convince you in a single thread why you should use it is probably not realistic. You will have to spend time with it to properly learn it before you could draw an accurate and informed decision about whether it is best for you or not. Fortunately there is a demo now. But even then, 30 days is probably not enough time. I have been using it for over a decade and still learn new things. If you expect to be able to do the same things in the same way in DP you can do in Logic...or Cubase, etc...you are fooling yourself. They all have some different approaches. But if DP were not top notch, many of the top notch film composers and music industry folks would not be using it. But they are.

[Shooshie]

One needs to insert a plugin just to apply simple things like quantize and transpose??? Wow! And the plugin is "DESTRUCTIVE"? WOW again! That's a very counter productive and cumbersome approach to do something so elementary and something that is frequently needed.

No, I do not know what you're looking at, but that's not how we do things. First of all, know that there are many ways to do most things. DP tries to make a lot of workflows possible. And yes, you CAN insert plugins that will transpose in real time, but they are not destructive. You can MAKE them destructive if you decide that you like what they've done, and want to keep it that way. But generally, we use one of the other methods for quantizing and transposing.

Being able to apply new and change existing playback parameters (quantize, transpose, delays, loops, q-swings, velocity, etc, etc) on the fly in a matter of 1 - 2 seconds, without having to go sifting thru window menus for plugins that make "DESTRUCTIVE" changes to MIDI is something that DP really needs add in DP.

Please… if you are seriously considering DP, you must understand that Rome wasn't built in a day, and you will not know how DP works in even a week. After decades, some of us still find methods that are new to us, but have been there the whole time. DP is very deep.

Logic has every possible command and setting and window and menu and dialog. But they are not necessarily laid out in a meaningful workflow. Sometimes you have to go through a lot of windows and/or menus, dialogs, etc. to get to those settings. DP is made so that you can do most of your actions within one or two windows without a lot of fumbling for things. It takes a while to see how that is done.

I repeat: do not think you've figured it all out so soon. You will almost always be in error. But we're here to let you know when you've strayed toward a more difficult path, and to guide you back to the right path.

There are dialogs for quantize, transpose, change velocity, change automation and control, and most other things you would normally do in a region. We do not have solid regions like Logic; we use selections for that. Selections are more fluid and easy to work with (IMO). You learn to keep your finger on the Shift key when selecting to maintain and preserve a selection you're building.

There is a search feature which is extremely powerful for selecting for certain attributes over a large range.

But I'm not going to try to list features. There's a 1000 page manual for that, and there's a PDF of it for quick-searching it.

But we'll answer your questions.

Shoosh

[mikehalloran]

Fortunately there is a demo now

It includes the manual in pdf form.

[Michael Canavan]

I used DP until 2.7, switched to Logic 4, upgraded to DP5 and switched back to DP7 at Logic 8, (barely used 8, mostly made due with Live). I totally appreciate the obvious self reference in your forum name. The major flaw in thinking is definitely about keyboard shortcuts and sub-windows, in no way is DP less capable than Logic that way. Plus Quanize features, DP has no less than three ways to access quantization in a track/region.

So. The major differences in Logic and DP are based on two essential things, Logic has two views of the mixer, The Environment and the Mixer, DP has two ways to view the linear sequence, the Track Overview and the Sequence Editor. There's another MAJOR difference in workflow between Logic and DP, and that's object based editing VS linear MIDI editing. Now two little things to keep in mind before deciding that DP is inferior to Logic in terms of this: Markers and Chunks, (not to mention Clippings).

Markers in Logic are pretty much redundant, they don't serve much of a purpose besides being able to write names etc. In DP they do all kinds of editing functions, DP definitely wins the markers game, and it's a good reason why it's used to score films etc.

Chunks <-- This is HUGE, Logic has NOTHING like Chunks, not even close. Chunks are whole sequences/songs, parts of songs, just the verse, total remixes, anything really. In terms of object oriented editing tricks in many ways Chunks are vastly superior. You can cut out the verse, chorus, bridges etc. of a song and re-arrange them on the fly with the same amount of ease you find in Live.

Clippings, are so much more powerful in DP than any other DAW I've used except maybe Live, and even then, much easier to use in DP than Live. Nearly any part of any song you've created can be saved in either a Global (accessible in any DP project) or project based Clipping.

Plus DP has a Song window as well, Chunks can be arranged in the Song window with their own quantize settings intact, so if it's really a necessary part of your workflow to have non destructive quantize on various parts of a single track you can do it in the Song window.


I guess the best way to explain this is people look at the Sequence Editor in DP8 and compare it to other DAWs when to me anyway the Sequence Editor is mainly for overviews of MIDI data, and editing audio. I work mainly in the Tracks Overview on the sequence as a whole and even then with Chunks I don't think of the open Sequence/Chunk as my only environment. I copy and use the Chunks feature to quickly rearrange a song while I'm fleshing out an idea.

Once you get a hang of it going back to a strictly linear DAW like Cubase or Logic seems like a step backwards. Now there are things I love about Logic, but there's a good reason why I never upgraded to Logic 9, and don't even have 8 on my desktop. Logic at 8 was showing signs of compromising workflow for the average Joe and being "easy". A good example was/is how the hidden tracks in the Arrange are hidden in the Mixer, it changed in 8 for simplicities sake, and not for what pro user would want. MOTU are not and(I would guess) will not do this with DP, they know they have a specialized tool that people who use it care about, and don't need to compromise for simplicities sake.

[Michael Canavan]

Just finished watching your videos

Again, the Sequence Editor is not for moving large amounts of data around, it's more IMO for comparative MIDI quick fixes and micro editing audio files. The Tracks Overview is comparatively like Logics arrange, but again, DP uses both the Sequence Editor and the Tracks Overview like Logic uses the Arrange. There are icons in the Tracks Overview for visual recognition, but Logic is the only DAW that has pict images for tracks.
The huge fail on your part is looking into the Consolidated Window in DP, you simply haven't if you think Logic beats DP in terms of sub-mixers, track info windows, and the whole single window approach in general. DP beats them all this way.

[Shooshie]

Just watched the videos. I don't even know where to begin. Basically, you're asking for DP to become Logic. That just isn't how things work here. But when you describe how you think DP works, it's almost comical. You haven't scratched the surface of DP!

Come back in a year and see if you want the same video to represent what you think.

Let me give you some pointers: read the Quick Start manual.
Then read the DP Help files online. Not the Full Manual PDF, but the compact help files. They'll give you a quick guide to what's there.

Pay close attention to:
• Consolidated Windows
• Tracks Overview Window
• Sequence Editor
• MIDI Graphic Editor Window (set for one window for all tracks in the preferences)
• Mixing Board vs. Channel Strip, and preferences for the Mixing Board
• Tools: Range Selection Mode vs. Event Selection Mode vs. Both
• Region Menu
• MIDI Plugins (non-destructive)
• Audio: Edge Edit Copy vs. Original. This can create copies of audio that behave like your "aliases" or it can create copies of audio that become new and independent soundbites that do not alter the original.

Learn the modifier keys, and how they change in certain contexts.

Next, open the Commands Window and print it out. You'll want to read this for a few days as you assimilate some of what is possible with commands.

You might consider reading some of the Tips Sheet Thread in the main forum. It's not well organized, but you can search on certain words or categories and come up with a lot of things.

Let me tell you this: switching DAWs is a huge problem. You have to start over. Each DAW has its own ways of doing things, and if you don't learn them and commit to them, you will miss the point later on in so many other things. I found the same problem when I switched to Logic years ago and tried very hard to make comparisons to DP. I could not find anyone who really understood the comparisons I tried to make. They THOUGHT they did, but they really only understood either DP's way or Logic's way, not both. When I really and truly had learned the Logic way for those particular things, I realized that DP's ways were a lot more refined. But for certain other things, I'm sure Logic would have the upper hand. Neither one gets everything 100% right. You decide which one is more important to you. That was an easy decision; DP's ways are the ways I work. I went back to DP and have never considered leaving again, though it's nice to know how to use other DAWs.

I wish you luck. You're going to need some. Seriously, quit trying to use Logic while you're in DP. You'll never get there if you keep thinking "this doesn't work like Logic!" No, it doesn't. THAT'S WHY WE USE DP! Until you learn the secrets of the Tracks Overview Window, and many other things, you'll constantly be thinking "this sux." Trust me. DP doesn't suck. If it did, I have a full copy of Logic Studio, bought and paid for, which I could be using. You couldn't pay me enough to switch.

Shoosh

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Funny, if you switch the words DP and Logic for Finale and Sibelius, you described my experience almost to a "t." THanks for your insightful posts, Shoosh. I used to think they were too long, now they're never long enough... ☺ Heck, I've even stopped skimming (somewhat).