Freezed track out of phase DP8 64-bit

[Musikpelle]

When freezing a track, the track gets delayed and therefore is out of phase. (not the polarity switched)

I was interested to see if there was a difference between the original track, freezed track and bounced track. To test this I used a track with no plug-ins inserted, with output set to a mono output (not bus) and therefore creating a freezed mono track when using the freeze selected track command.

I then enabled playback on both tracks and played them simultaneously. They where out of phase. I then used Waves InPhase to determine by how much.
The delay changes when changing the buffer size.
Buffer size - Out of phase by ms compared to original track
64 - 0,64 ms
128 - 1,28 ms
256 - 2,63 ms
and so on.

I also compared the tracks waveform when zoomed in in the sequence editor, same result.

When bouncing the same track it is exactly in phase.

The Automatic Plug-in Latency Compensation box is ticked.

Any Ideas?

MusikPelle

[Shooshie]

Are you in the USA so that you can call MOTU during their business hours? I think I'd rather let MOTU's guys deal with that one.

Shooshie

[Musikpelle]

No, I live in Sweden. So i tend to sleep during their business hours. Also, it is quite expensive to call to USA from Sweden. I could send them an email tomorrow though.

MusikPelle

[Shooshie]

No, I live in Sweden. So i tend to sleep during their business hours. Also, it is quite expensive to call to USA from Sweden. I could send them an email tomorrow though.

MusikPelle

I do hope you get an answer. Just when I think I have it all figured out, something like this pops up, and I have to rethink everything. The first possibility, of course, is that it's caused by something about your system or the way you are doing things. I'm by no means saying that IS the answer, but if it's not, then we have a real problem that's going to require more than I know to fix. Might as well go straight to MOTU, then.

Shooshie

[Musikpelle]

Could you also try it out? Freeze a messure of a drum and then play it at the same time as the original track. Do it att buffer size 1024. Listen for phasing and zoom in and check if the waveform has moved. If you are having this issue as well, then it is probably not my system. Good to know before contacting MOTU.

MusikPelle

[Dan Worley]

That kind of thing scares the heck out of me. I remember when Merging used to do that. Ugh! But anyway, I tested Freeze (which I never use) and everything works correctly on my system. The original and freeze tracks null out if I switch the polarity of one with the Trim plug.

This was with the buffer at 1024.

I use DP8.0. I have not upgraded to 8.01, or whatever it is now.

Here's a visual.

[Musikpelle]

Interesting. I use 8.01 on OSX 10.6.8.

I've emailed Motu and are now waiting for a reply.

I'll give an update when I know more.

MusikPelle

[Sean Kenny]

That kind of thing scares the heck out of me. I remember when Merging used to do that. Ugh! But anyway, I tested Freeze (which I never use) and everything works correctly on my system. The original and freeze tracks null out if I switch the polarity of one with the Trim plug.

This was with the buffer at 1024.

I use DP8.0. I have not upgraded to 8.01, or whatever it is now.

Here's a visual.

Hi Guys, I'm afraid can't offer any explanations as I haven't installed 8 yet. Waiting till things have ironed out with bug fixes and I have the time to "instal and hope".

Not that it helps much but I have to say that I find v7 by far the most accurate and stable DAW I have ever used.

I have PT & Logic and wouldn't dare try the things I do in DP in those daws.

DP is so accurate that I time vocals without using any crossfades and get no glitches whatsoever.

Not possible?? ........ It is in DP!

Gonna do a Video on this when I get "another life". One thing is for sure if you are experiencing this in DP then something is definitely wrong.

Sorry for stating the obvious, I just wanted to reassure anyone interested that when it comes to accuracy DP is the daddy!!

Sleep easy

SK

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Tested with MachFive 3. Two different tests, at three different times and in three separate sequences... not good. Techlink to MOTU.

Freeze v. bounce, buffer at 1024. Track 16 driver.



Freeze v. bounce, buffer at 512. Open image in a new tab or window to see all three notes.



Finally, Built in Mac audio driver at 4096.

[Sean Kenny]

Tested with MachFive 3. Two different tests, at three different times and in three separate sequences... not good. Techlink to MOTU.

Freeze v. bounce, buffer at 1024. Track 16 driver.



Freeze v. bounce, buffer at 512. Open image in a new tab or window to see all three notes.



Finally, Built in Mac audio driver at 4096.

Couldn't be more clear than this

Thanks for taking the time to mock this up, for us

Regards

Sean Kenny

PS Gonna wait a while till I start to use v8 in anger.

[Shooshie]

Ok, maybe if we could compare notes and figure out the differences between Dan Worley's and MLC's tests. Why does one null, and the other does not?

THAT is the important question here. We've seen that it does work for some people. We've seen that it does not work for other people. What is going wrong? THAT is the specific answer we are looking for. THAT is the answer we've got to find. And if it leads us to a conditional bug, then we will be helping MOTU find that bug which their conditions obviously have not led them to find on their own.

So, what's going on, guys?

Shooshie

[MIDI Life Crisis]

You talkin to me?! Or you talkin' to MO'TU?

As mentioned before, using an audio reduction plug-in (Sound Soap, I think) always resulted in a delay in the printed audio. I'm not talking about a plug in the mixer, but applying it to the bite only. What is similar between THAT process and freezing that is not shared by BTD or realtime recording?

That would seem the question to me.

[Dan Worley]

Difference is MLC froze MIDI/VI, I froze audio because I thought (still do) that's what the original post was about.

Anyway, I just tested MIDI/VI here with a 2-bar snare test. The results were very good. Freeze and bounce null out completely (surprising since we're dealing with MIDI). And two freezes, one done with a 1024 buffer, and one done with a 64 buffer almost cancel out completely--only two snare shots have bleed. NOTE: I just did another test where the freeze and bounce did not null out, but it was not due to a shift in time, it's because the MIDI information (or playback thereof) is not consistent.

Even the MIDI/VI live vs bounce, and MIDI/VI live vs freeze null out most of the snare hits in the two-bar test. It's different each playback, but I certainly wouldn't notice any kind of timing issues if I used the bounce or the freeze or the live MIDI track.

I tested with Model-12. My sample hard drive croaked last week and I have not restored it so I can't test any other libraries.

Anyway, I may post up screenshots or a video later on if I find the time.

I'm using DP8.0 and SL 10.6.8. RME Digiface interface.

MLC's results are scary.

Here's the screenshot:

[FMiguelez]

Oh my Quetzalcoatl!!!!

This thread is making me nauseous.
MLC's results are scary. Dan's are what I'd expect, but the uncertainty really gets me.
How can these results be so dramatically different?

In addition to all this, other people are reporting crashes when trying to freeze more than a few tracks...
http://www.motunation.com/forum/viewtop ... 30#p452023

I've always suspected weird things with freezing (and BTD). This only confirms my suspicions.

I truly hope MOTU makes fixing these issues a PRIORITY for next release. But they won't unless we ALL report it, so please guys, let us all contact MOTU and tell them about it!

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Well, again, my experiences with BTD and freeze issues is on complex VIs.