Advice on recording vocals while playing keyboard

[Music4dw]

I normally record keyboard parts, and then overdub vocals. I'd like to try to record vocals while playing keyboard. The issue I have is with my weighted keyboard I hear the mechanical thumping key sounds in the vocal microphone (It doesn't produce any actual sound because I monitor it in headphones). The sound doesn't appear noticeable at strong vocal levels and at the end of the day in a mix might not be noticeable at all. I just feel bad knowing I'm recording that noise on the vocal track

Before I go any further I thought it ask for some opinions on how people deal with this. At the end of the day, is this thumping anything to be concerned about? Should I pipe the piano sound to the speakers so that the microphone picks it up (instead of the thumping) like it would a real piano or is that too painful and potentially unnecessary?

Appreciate any thoughts.

-Danny

[glamacchia]

Hi Danny,

Waiting for my wort (beer) to cool.

Typically if I am doing a live vocals and keys it is an acoustic piano so there are two mic sources to contend with. If it is an electric keyboard just record the line out and there will be no vocals in the keys and all you have to contend with is the key thumps in the vocal mic… which should be pretty negligible.

Close mic the vocals. Expand / gate / duck the vocals.


" Should I pipe the piano sound to the speakers so that the microphone picks it up (instead of the thumping) like it would a real piano or is that too painful and potentially unnecessary?"

No just record the line out. After the fact if you like the sound of micing a speaker in a room for the piano you can do that.

Noise and grit is good. It is what breaks the sterility ( Sterilness ? Spelling?) of a recording. ...especially when dealing with an acoustic piano.

Be Well

[Music4dw]

Thanks for the reply! I'll try the close mic recommendation to minimize the thump and deal with any residual as you suggest. My pianos are all software - come to think about it, they painstakingly sample the key thumps for realism -HA! Less worry, more recording.

Thanks again!

[Phil O]

I've run into this before. My solution was to use a figure-8 mic and adjust it so the keyboard was in the null. I used an AT4050 switched to figure-8 pattern and got barely audible key "thunks" compared to the same mic and position in cardioid pattern. Admittedly, I liked the sound of cardioid a little better, but the difference was mimimal. This gals vocals needed a fair amount of compression which really brought out the thunks when we tried it with the cardioid mike. The figure-8 did the trick. Just a thought.

Phil

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Nice idea, Phil!

[Phil O]

Not my idea, really. Engineers have been doing this sort of thing for years...but I'll take the credit.

Phil

[stubbsonic]

The thumping on the keys will merge with the actual keyboard track (as part of the attacks of all those notes). But you do want to minimize it.

I'd add that doing things like dropping the keyboard fairly low and getting the distance of the
mic further from the keys. Also, point the mic away from the keyboard and toward your face.

Beyond that, the close mic thing is ok, but don't sacrifice the sound you want on the vocal for this. It isn't worth sacrificing a good vocal sound to get rid of a tiny amount of thumping.

[Music4dw]

My solution was to use a figure-8 mic and adjust it so the keyboard was in the null.
Phil

Sounds interesting. Just so I understand, something like this?

[stubbsonic]

Without a figure 8, you could point a second mic toward the keyboard (with the capsule very close to the vocal mic's capsule), and you can record both. Now you can invert the phase of the keyboard mic and slowly bring up the fader until you get maximum cancelation of the keyboard thump. Might mess up the vocal sound a little, so only use a little.

[Phil O]

Sounds interesting. Just so I understand, something like this?

Exactly. You can play with the angle of the mic over the keys until you get minimum noise. Figure8 mics are great for this. They tend to have excellent rejection in their null position.

Actually it's not really a null position. It's the position at which rejection is maximum. Is there a name for this? Anyone? I should know this.

Phil

[Prime Mover]

Without a figure 8, you could point a second mic toward the keyboard (with the capsule very close to the vocal mic's capsule), and you can record both. Now you can invert the phase of the keyboard mic and slowly bring up the fader until you get maximum cancelation of the keyboard thump. Might mess up the vocal sound a little, so only use a little.

Meh, I've never heard of polarity inversion used in a live environment. Polarity inversion really only works on identical material, most likely inside of signal processing. In actual space, there are too many variables. You might get something that "kind of" rejects some frequencies, but might emphasize others, and TOTALLY skew the vocals. The mic frequency response, the directional axis, the varied reflections... are going to make the signals fairly different. On top of that, if it does work, it'll sap all the low end out of the vocals: the off-axis mic is still going to pick up a nice amount of low frequencies in the vocals, you polarity invert it, and those lows will disappear.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, because it's a neat idea, but I don't think it will produce satisfying results.

Figure 8 is the way to go. It has the maximum off-axis rejection that you can have. The only problem is, if the space is untreated, it's probably not going to be the nicest sound. Figure 8s pick up a lot of room noise, by nature. If the space is untreated you might consider finding a middle ground like a hyper-cardioid. Hyper-cardioids are technically about halfway between a cardioid and a figure-8, they have a fairly directional frontal pickup pattern, but have a smaller pickup area in the back. You won't get QUITE as much off-axis rejection, but you'll get less room noise, so you might want to give it a shot. Another option is to use a figure-8 with a baffle behind it. Or the best solution... treat the room. You'll just want to play with it and see what sounds best. I used the figure-8 technique with a folk guitarist that worked quite well.

But in the end, I would question why you want to record simultaneously. If it's a question of getting into it while singing, maybe there's something mentally or physically you could change in order to mimic the same feel you get while playing. If it's a question of timing, you could record yourself singing a scratch track along with it, turn it down, and sing along with it, using it as a guide. I dunno. I would explore the other options out there for getting good results with overdub singing.

[Music4dw]

Exactly. You can play with the angle of the mic over the keys until you get minimum noise.

Phil

Got it. I'll give this a shot. Thanks again for the tip!

[Music4dw]

.
Another option is to use a figure-8 with a baffle behind it. Or the best solution... treat the room. You'll just want to play with it and see what sounds best.

But in the end, I would question why you want to record simultaneously..

Yes, I'll try the baffle and have been wanting to treat the room so this is another excuse

Why do this? As I mentioned I've always done the normal overdub method and it's fine, but I've thrown up a mic a few times and actually preferred the vocal performance, just not the noise, so I bail and overdub.

Not to get too esoteric and I'm not planning on any legendary performances anytime soon, but...

I've always played and sang at the same time (live a lot) and its much more natural to me. The results is never quite the same when separated. It's hard to explain but maybe like musicians overdubbing parts vs. playing together in the same room at the same time where there's live interaction and a vibe for lack of a better word, only even more intimate if that makes any sense. I've been having a hankering to record some more free time piano, vocal performances that would be very hard to try to overdub as the timing and phrasing isn't set to a click but by an internal emotive clock that is driven by both my hands and voice together and at times separate, i.e. an instrumental pause with vocal line leading into the piano returning. These are subtle variations for sure but I'd like to capture them and see how it comes out, and if I like it, I'd like the vocal recoding to be usable.

Thanks for your response and follow up question.