New to MachFive3 - some thoughts / questions

[askewd]

Hey everybody! Firstly i just want to say that i've only been using MachFive3 a couple of weeks - but so far i am blown away by the software, it's awesome - much superior to Kontakt and anything else. The synth side of it is mind-blowing too - a nice surprise. I can see MachFive3 becoming my go-to synth for sound programming! So many possibilities and features , yet under an attractive interface. Love the onboard sounds too.

It's not all good though… infact at the moment i am reluctant to use it in 'real' projects because it feels very unstable. It crashes more than any other software i own.

Below are some other random annoyances/bugs that I've noticed so far - i realise i am a newbie so if these are user errors then I'm very happy to be educated on the matters. I should also mention that I'm using Logic pro 9 on mac osx 10.8.2.

OK… in no particular order.

Crashes often (especially during slice mode)

An example of a guaranteed way to crash the program. Save a program using Logics 'save as setting' command. This method of saving is very useful as it means that presets can be accessed from logics side brower. I save presets this way in all other synths includingg UVI player with no problem. If you save a preset in Machfive3, and then try to load it in using the logic sidebar browser ,the whole system crashes instantly. Every other synth/sampler works fine & UVI player works fine too. It's a fundamental part of the logic workflow for many users and it means that you can load a patch in, without needing to open the synth.


Altering a sample to 'slice' mode *sometimes* adds artefacts (clicks to end of slices etc) even when played back at the original pitch. It shouldn't.


'convert' button in slicer doesn't seem to work. You have to drag it on top of it's part or onto another part. If you drag it onto itself it loses the 'main' sample which means no ability to drag the MIDI.

Zoom issues:

MIDI select (often called 'follow' in other programs) is good for showing the currently played slice, but it loses the zoom setting. For example, if i zoom into tighten the start and end points of a slice and then play the next slice - it jumps back out to full zoom and remains there. Going back to the previous slice now requires zooming in all over again. It needs to remember the zoom settings of the last time you visited that slice - or at least keep the current zoom amount.

speaking of zoom - why no simple zoom icons/shortcuts? I just had to buy a new mouse because the zoom didn't work with the apple magic mouse!! it works now , but would also benefit from a simple 'zoom to selection' icon. How can a modern sampler not have that basic feature? (maybe i just can't find it)

Also, in slice mode, the scroll wheel 'zooms' into the waveform, yet at other times it horizontally scrolls left/right through the waveform. The behaviour needs to be consistent. I would much rather the scroll wheel always zoom in/out - without holding a modifier key. Horizontal scrolling on mouse should do just that - scroll the waveform.

Danger:

If you select 'save program' in the list menu - it's very easy to destroy your sample. There is no warning that you are about to overwrite your .wav and replace it with a M5 program. I accidentally destroyed some samples of mine. I realise it was a newbie error but i would have welcomes a 'are you sure' at least (or even better forced me to give it a new name).


Losing samples:

Once you've converted your loop to slices and mapped them across the keyboard, i've found that SOMETIMES logic loses the samples when i reload the project the following day etc. I guess I am meant to save the program as a new program…but fast workflow shouldn't require that. For example, if i tweak a sound in a synth , it saves it with my project - when i reopen the project, the synth is in the same state that I left it - even without me doing a 'save as'. (i.e. total recall) even in a more complex program such as NI Battery - if I drag samples into a battery kit and edit them I do not have to save the kit - the kit is recalled exactly every time i boot up the project. Same with Stylus etc. To have to save the program every time you tweaked it would be a massive workflow destroyer….

A typical scenario for me would be dragging a sample from the desktop into Mach5 and simply instantly playing it. 1) open MF3 2) throw sample at it 3) close MF3 and play the sample on the keyboard. I do not expect it to have to save the program each time.

I also have thousands of beats… I want to be able to throw a loop into MF3, map it across the keyboard in one click and start playing it. I don't want to have to resave a whole new program for every single loop. that would end up with duplicating thousands of loops in 'mapped' format… but that's kind of pointless as there would be no way to preview these mapped loops because they would become m5p format and wouldn't play in the usually way. (i.e. i'd have no way to preview the whole loop)

As i say, losing it's samples has only happened a few times - not all the time. I expect it's something that i am doing wrong.

Other:

Autoload (in the main browser) seems to have no effect on m5p libraries?

Machfive plays when i don't want it to! no matter which track I'm on in my sequencer, when i press spacebar to play the track - Machfive starts playing too! I can't figure out how to turn the damn thing off, apart from just removing it.? i've tried pressing all the 'auto play' kind of buttons. It's as if they are both sharing the same 'play' command. help!

If you flick between sample mode and stretch mode, it remembers the settings (start & end points etc) But if you flick between sample mode and slice mode , when you return to sample mode it's lost its settings. Annoying.

Can you please confirm that if you load a sample loop in that has NO time data (ie not Rex nor Acidized Wav), and then go to slicemode, set the slice points, and go to "save sample" - it creates a Wav with timedata - but it doesn't do anything else weird to the sample? If this is the case then excellent - this is really handy for me for converting my loops to timecoded ones to preview 'in time' with Machfive3.


I'd appreciate to hear any thoughts on these matters. I would love to feel confident enough with the stability of MachFive3 to use it in my main working projects.

Thank you
Dale

[MIDI Life Crisis]

I'd need to know more about your overall setup to comment with any intelligence (not that I can guarantee that regardless of your system). What most people post are the machine year and type (2013 Mac Pro 12 core? I wish!), which OS, what audio interfaces, what DAWs, and you might add whether or not the same problems arise working in stand alone as well as as a plug.

Welcome to the board. Mind the trolls!

[askewd]

Hey, thanks for the fast reply... My system details are:

Imac i7 27" 2009 edition
12 gig ram
Osx 10.8.2
Logic Pro 9 (latest update) 64 bit mode
Onyx blackjack sound card

I will try standalone mode but as most of my list is related to daily use in a sequencer I'm not going to be able to replicate a lot of it.

Cheers

[askewd]

Ok one more question to add onto my list ...

When I add an effect onto a key group or layer , the effect only seems to last as long as the sample! Obviously in the case of a delay or reverb I would want the fx tail much longer than the sample size!

For example, say I had 3 key zones... One kick, one hat, one snare ... If wanted to put reverb on the snare. How should I be doing this? without using aux and without using multiple parts?

I thought pasting the snare onto its own layer & adding fx to the layer would work, but didn't.

I tried to add extra silence 'space' onto end of the sample as a workaround...but couldn't see how I would achieve that either? (Although realised this was probably not the ideal solution)

Thanks

[hugy]

Ok one more question to add onto my list ...

When I add an effect onto a key group or layer , the effect only seems to last as long as the sample! Obviously in the case of a delay or reverb I would want the fx tail much longer than the sample size!

For example, say I had 3 key zones... One kick, one hat, one snare ... If wanted to put reverb on the snare. How should I be doing this? without using aux and without using multiple parts?

I thought pasting the snare onto its own layer & adding fx to the layer would work, but didn't.

Having each sample into its own layer and having the FX on the layer level does work.
You have probably done something wrong at one point.

Check the Tree view to ensure this and try again.

FX on the keygroup level are per voice, which means that each voice will have its own FX bus which doesn't fit much a delay or reverb usage. (Plus the tail of the FX is not handled as you have already seen)
It makes more sense for filter, drive and stuff like that.

[askewd]

Thanks hugy you are correct it does indeed work. I must have been doing something odd. I'm starting to realise just how useful the tree view mode is

Ok i can tick that one off the list, any thoughts on any of the other points?

A question regarding missing samples... Ni programs like Battery (& i expect Kontakt) have a very intelligent way of noticing when a sample is missing, and letting you easily find it - by way of searching a folder/subfolders. It's incredibly fast and works great. The important thing is that it warns you *upon opening the project* that it's missing the file, and forces you to address the issue before opening the rest of your project. This is good. Last week I produced a theme tune for a major UK prime time Saturday night TV show, and i was horrified to discover that i'd sent them a version which had lost some important sounds! (thank goodness i noticed before it aired!) It's my fault for not noticing instantly i know - but i wish it had warned me that the sample was missing , rather than just playing silence and letting me 'manually' notice by opening the plugin and noticing a 'sample not valid' message buried somewhere ! Is there anything i can do about this? can i get Machfive3 to warn of missing samples upon initial loading of the project? This is a simple, but critical thing imo.

Cheers

[hugy]

Thanks hugy you are correct it does indeed work. I must have been doing something odd. I'm starting to realise just how useful the tree view mode is

Ok i can tick that one off the list, any thoughts on any of the other points?

Not sure I understand what was the actual other questions.

A question regarding missing samples... Ni programs like Battery (& i expect Kontakt) have a very intelligent way of noticing when a sample is missing, and letting you easily find it - by way of searching a folder/subfolders. It's incredibly fast and works great. The important thing is that it warns you *upon opening the project* that it's missing the file, and forces you to address the issue before opening the rest of your project. This is good. Last week I produced a theme tune for a major UK prime time Saturday night TV show, and i was horrified to discover that i'd sent them a version which had lost some important sounds! (thank goodness i noticed before it aired!) It's my fault for not noticing instantly i know - but i wish it had warned me that the sample was missing , rather than just playing silence and letting me 'manually' notice by opening the plugin and noticing a 'sample not valid' message buried somewhere ! Is there anything i can do about this? can i get Machfive3 to warn of missing samples upon initial loading of the project? This is a simple, but critical thing imo.

Cheers

It warns, but without any modal dialog indeed.
There is no other way to get this info AFAIK

[askewd]

I'll try to explain my points more concisely below. I guess what i am mainly looking for is to know that i'm not alone noticing these issues & that i'm highlighting some genuine issues that need fixing. I also stress the point that im new to MF3 so these are observations that i've noticed only in a small amount of time spent with the software. That worrys me. As it stands so far, i have bought a very unstable product. If there was a demo I could have a discovered this without spending my money but as there was no demo an i had to take the risk im disappointed so far but rather than asking for money back im willing to be patient and highlight the issues so that Motu can fix them.

Today for instance i was playing with the new 'Vintage Legends Demo" which sounded amazing... but after saving my project - it refused to then reopen , saying that 'Mach5 had unexpectedly quit" and it's made the project unopenable. It's ruined. I am a professional producer and i simply can not afford to work with such unstable program. But I REALLY do want to as i can see it's potential! So anyway, I figured i'd try talking to you guys first to help me separate genuine bugs from newbie user error. My main points are:

1. saving as a preset setting (.aupreset) so that logic can load patches & channel strips from it's sidebar browser crashes constantly when trying to load those back in from the sidebar. This ONLY happens with MF3.

2. Altering a sample to 'slice' mode *sometimes* adds artefacts (clicks to end of slices etc) even when played back at the original pitch. This is obviously a bug of somekind.

3. Zoom has no zoom icons or keyboard shortcuts, ie "zoom to selection". This is something very basic that it should really have, right?

4. Follow mode (MIDI select) loses zoom settings and always zooms right out when moving from key to key. Not helpful.

5. Magic mouse does not work right with M53. (zooming is crazy)

6. Zooming is inconsistent depending on which osc mode you're in. Sometimes the scroll wheel zooms, other times it scrolls left/right. Should be consistent don't you think?.

7. No warning when you're about to overwrite a .wav file with a .m5 program. If you load a wav from the browser it automatically calls the program the same name... dangerous.

8. easily loses samples. Moving or renaming a project folder instantly confuses mf3 and

9. it has no fast & efficient way of relocating them.

10. No warning on project load of missing Mf3 samples. Crucial.

11. Clicking on "Convert" button in slice mode doesn't do anything?

12. Autoload doesn't seem to work with .m5 patches?

13. MF3 plays loops when i press play in my sequencer, even when it shouldn't be. Why? how do i stop it?

14. Switching between sample mode and slice mode loses some basic settings (start/end points etc).

15. not a complaint - but please could somebody confirm that if you load a sample loop in that has NO time data (ie not Rex nor Acidized Wav), and then go to slicemode, set the slice points, and go to "save sample" - it creates a Wav with time data but it doesn't do anything else to the sample? If this is the case then it's exactly what i need. Just want to be sure before i start slicing up my loops.


Cheers again, all thoughts appreciated.

[hugy]

This is NOT an official MOTU support forum. So if you need to report issues, this is not the right place to do it.
You will have better luck here
http://www.motu.com/techsupport

We can maybe answer on usage questions though.

3. Mouse wheel should work fine with option key pressed
8. I don't see how M5 would be aware of you changing folder name.
9. Right click in mapping view then choose Find Missing samples
11. Convert is a drag n drop thing if I remember correctly. You mouse down on convert and then you can move the program to another part.
12. Probably because of the potential load time.
13. Part with loops on it are defaulted to auto play, you can deactivate this by clicking on the icon on the left of the little play icon on each part.
14. AFAIK yes, but it maybe on depends on your file format. WAV should be fine.

[Michael Canavan]

1. saving as a preset setting (.aupreset) so that logic can load patches & channel strips from it's sidebar browser crashes constantly when trying to load those back in from the sidebar. This ONLY happens with MF3.

Well personally I never had much luck with Logic and third party samplers in regards to saving presets in it's browser, or with tweaking settings in a sampler without saving them in Logic. It was always hit or miss, sometimes it would work sometimes not. I used Logic before I ever bought M53 and haven't used it since, so it's not M53 only.

For years now I tend to save plug ins in their own preset formats. Most of the developers I use have their own format, because it will cross platform. M53's format for instance would load fine on Windows or Mac, VST, RTAS or AU. If this is the first plug in you've used that has issues with native formats, then you're lucky.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

DP does a nice job of saving M5 stuff. Not surprised.

[wylie1]

I have a question.
Will MachFive read Sampletank libraries? MOTU offers a cross grade price I was thinking about picking it up.

[bayswater]

Will MachFive read Sampletank libraries?

Not according to MOTU.

http://www.motu.com/products/software/m ... ounds.html

[Michael Canavan]

13. MF3 plays loops when i press play in my sequencer, even when it shouldn't be. Why? how do i stop it?

Confirmed some weird behavior with loops and Autoplay.
If it's turned on at least in my set up, if you simply turn off autoplay without hitting the stop button on the little M53 loop transport it will continue to start playing when you push play.
Solution for me anyway is to hit the transport stop button while the sequence is playing, with Autoplay turned off.

[askewd]

Thanks for the replies so far.

This is NOT an official MOTU support forum. So if you need to report issues, this is not the right place to do it.
You will have better luck here
http://www.motu.com/techsupport

Thanks will try there. As I mentioned I just wanted some community thoughts on the issues to help me figure out which ones were real bugs and which were just user errors.

We can maybe answer on usage questions though.
3. Mouse wheel should work fine with option key pressed
8. I don't see how M5 would be aware of you changing folder name.
9. Right click in mapping view then choose Find Missing samples
11. Convert is a drag n drop thing if I remember correctly. You mouse down on convert and then you can move the program to another part.
12. Probably because of the potential load time.
13. Part with loops on it are defaulted to auto play, you can deactivate this by clicking on the icon on the left of the little play icon on each part.
14. AFAIK yes, but it maybe on depends on your file format. WAV should be fine.

3. Not fine with Magic Mouse, no.
8. Would not be so much of a problem if mf3 had a more intelligent 'missing sample' system as per rival products.
9. Yes I was aware of this manual, one by one, non intelligent way of relocating.
11. Seems to act that way yes, but manual implies its meant to work by clicking it too. Also, when you drag it loses its main sample layer making drag & drop MIDI (or audio) of loop into sequencer impossible.
12. Can live without it but would be nice to be able to quickly preview patches somehow
14. Thanks!

Confirmed some weird behavior with loops and Autoplay.
If it's turned on at least in my set up, if you simply turn off autoplay without hitting the stop button on the little M53 loop transport it will continue to start playing when you push play.
Solution for me anyway is to hit the transport stop button while the sequence is playing, with Autoplay turned off.
Mac Pro 8 core 2.66 24G RAM, RME fireface 800, Remote SL, DP8, Live 8. M53, Zebra, too many plug ins...

Cheers I will try that.

For years now I tend to save plug ins in their own preset formats. Most of the developers I use have their own format, because it will cross platform. M53's format for instance would load fine on Windows or Mac, VST, RTAS or AU. If this is the first plug in you've used that has issues with native formats, then you're lucky.

Yes it is. I have many synths and I save all favourite patches as both native formats AND then save them as logic presets or channel strips for much nicer organisation & recall. surely you use presets (snap shots in dp maybe) and channel strips? Channel strips are important part of any sequencer ... If you want a certain sound, say a favourite guitar with a favourite reverb applied, you should not be required to open the sampler and then locate the guitar then manually insert the reverb plugin & then open the reverb plugin & manually load the desired reverbs effect setting/snapshot (which itself would probably be saved in format native to the sequencer not the plugin) . Most people would simply save the whole chain as a channel strip and load it all in one single step. Yes? For this to not work correctly in a popular sequencer like logic is a bug plain and simple & I shouldn't be expected to ignore it.

Any other thoughts welcome.

Ps. I've been toying with the idea of switching from logic to DP8 as I'm a fan of motu ... Real shame there is no demo though...not even a downloadable manual to look through. Makes it a bit hard to take that kind of jump.