Mac advice for getting back in the saddle

[shankyboy]

Greetings fellow Mac & DP users. I have been away from this site for a few years. (Between getting married and added responsibilities of the day job, I had to put the music down for a while) Any way, I recently fired up the old G4 Dual 1.25 to start working on some new projects and realized that I am WAY out of date and need to look at upgrading my Mac and my DP software. I have a 2408 MK3 with the upgraded card and an 828 MK2. From what I see on the MOTU site, I am still good to use that hardware if I get a newer Mac.

This time around, I am doing this more for my personal music rather than making money recording other people's music. Translation: I don't feel the need to get the latest & greatest MAC available, just something newer than my old G4 that will do the job and work with the latest DP software. What do you guys recommend and which models should I be looking at or avoiding?

Thanks in advance for any input.

[HCMarkus]

The MOTU hardware will work great with anything (that has proper connectivity). You will be simply blown away by any Mac of fairly recent vintage.

I had G4 similar or identical to your, on which I ran DP3 under OS9. It worked pretty well with my 2408mkIII and a pair of Yamaha 01v's, but the only VI ever tried to run was Stylus, and I recall it being rather "tempermental". I moved to a G4 laptop with an 828mkII after a wildfire swept thru my neighborhood and took the Power Mac and the rest of my studio away. Not fun, but it allowed me to keep working as I rebuilt. These Mac probably Geekbench lower than the current iPhone.

I moved to a G5 Quad in early 2006, the last and greatest PPC Mac. It served me well for many years, with 6GB RAM and eSATA and UAD2 PCIe cards. On that machine, I could run fairly large audio-only projects with lots of plugins just fine. It might allow me to (barely) run Ivory (VI piano) and BFD2 (VI drums) simultaneously with a 128 buffer, but all four processors were pushed hard. I could do a lot with the buffer at 1024, so tracking with external MIDI modules allowed work to get done fairly efficiently. The Quad G5 was the first Mac that fulfilled, at least for me, the true promise of DP. Used value is probably a couple hundred bucks today. Geeekbench 32 bit score 3300 or so.

My new machine is a hex core 3.33 gHz Mac Pro with 24 GB RAM, and I have yet to push it beyond about 25% with a 128 buffer. Geekbench 32 bit score 13800. I am more than pleased! I don't do huge orchestral template emulations; my work is mostly pop, jazz and documentary scoring. You can find a 6 core Mac Pro refurbished in the Apple Store on occasion, for about $2500 or so. I built mine from a used 2009 with updated EFI and CPU, at a cost of about $1,800 (before RAM, SSDs, etc). I like the fact I can use my UAD2 PCIe card, can run three video monitors, and can load it up with RAM, HDs and SSDs. And the fact it is built like a tank and can sit in my machine room unattended (temperature monitored just in case!) and slave away wihout complaint.

The preceding brief history is offered in the interest of some perspective. The current Mac Mini, iMac, and Apple Laptops will all work well for many projects, and your 828mkII is the very interface I use every day with great results. The Mac Pro is the only option if you need PCIe for your 2408mkIII. At some point someone will put out a Thunderbolt expansion chassis that will work with PCIe, but it will probably be costly.

Whatever you choose, prepare to be amazed, and have fun!

[mikehalloran]

I have a 2408 MK3 with the upgraded card and an 828 MK2.

The 2408mk3 will require that you get the 424e card so that it will install in a MacPro. Your 424 or 424x card will not work. MOTU will sell you the card if you have registered your 2408.

Your 828mkII will work with anything - if FW, it will need a Thunderbolt to FW adapter for the very latest Mini. iMac and MacBook Pro. There are some issues with the earlier builds of the 828mkII but those can be repaired - the later ones like mine are still humming along just fine.

At some point someone will put out a Thunderbolt expansion chassis that will work with PCIe,

Do not hold your breath - it may never happen as MOTU will need to write new drivers for what is now legacy hardware.

Anyway, you do not want a G5. The heat problems are killing them off (mine still works but that's today)

The recent Minis and iMacs are great machines if your needs aren't VI intense, DP 8 is very good and easier on the CPU in 64bit than any of us expected.

Otherwise, a MacPro, v3.1 or later should do everything you need and then some.

I'm not certain the minimum RAM to breathe easy but many are reporting that 8 or 10G really aren't enough. I have 20G on my 2010 iMac and have no issues.

If considering an iMac or Mini, spend the extra $ on the i7 Quad. It's rated 30% faster than the i5 (itself faster than the i3 and Core2 Duo) of the same speed because of the way it handles floating point processing. For certain DP tasks, it's much faster than 30% - I got to test this recently.

[bayswater]

Remember if you go with a Mini or iMac, your 2408 is useless.

If you want to go really cheap, G5's are risky, but mine can still do a lot with a 2408 and a UAD-1. I don't think it will run DP 8, but DP 7.24 is supported.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

DP8 is Intel only - well, at least non-PPC. HOWEVER.... A PC version is due to be released and that can really change the picture for the o/p quite a bit. He WOULD be able to use DP8 and save a bit if he's willing to ditch the Mac (and wait for the release).

http://www.motu.com/products/software/dp

Presumably you'd also be able to load older DP programs into the PC version. If I was a hobbyist I'd certainly consider a PC at this point.

[shankyboy]

Thanks for the info. I am definitely looking at going with a Mac Pro. So, if I do that, I'll have to upgrade the card (again). I just upgraded to the X 3 years ago because my original crapped out.

Thanks again.

[mikehalloran]

Thanks for the info. I am definitely looking at going with a Mac Pro. So, if I do that, I'll have to upgrade the card (again).

That is correct.

Since the PCIx is backwards compatible, there is a used market for those G3/4/5 owners who may have a bad 424 or even an old 324. Some late G5s do have PCIe slots but they're also the ones with the worst heat problems.

[Michael Canavan]

Unless you find a smoking deal on a newer Mac Pro I would go with the latest Mac Mini server edition. Geekbench has it beating all but the 2009(v4,1) and above models of Mac Pros in speed. http://browser.primatelabs.com/mac-benchmarks . This is in both 32 and 64 bit tests.

It's possible to find a great deal, I found an 2.6ghz 09 8 core for $1200, but it's really rare. Mostly they go for $1600+, whereas a top of the line 2012 Mac Mini can be had for $1100.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Then again, it isn't always about fastest speed and bench marks. My (used) Mac Pro 3,1 is kicking some pretty serious butt in my studio right now. Bouncing even a quicktime movie takes seconds as does BTD of audio (much faster, of course). I suppose it's "sluggish" a for an old (2008) 8 core at 3.2 with 20GB of RAM compared to a new Mini, but me thinks there is much more to be gained in buying a robust, made to last machine. Not to mention the lost of PCIe and a host of other stuff you won't find in a lessor machine.

My suggestion is stay with your instinct and get a nice used Mac Pro that can run Mountain Lion and the world will treat you right. Or you can buy a fast new cigar box sized Mini but if you are going to go a less than Mac pro route, I'd suggest an iMac first before a Mini. I mean, if you're going for "convenience" then go all the way and get the built in screen.

[HCMarkus]

If it simply must be a Mac Pro, I'd go for a 4,1 or later, unless the 3,1 you find has all the RAM you'll ever need. Compare RAM prices and you'll see what I mean...

[MIDI Life Crisis]

I don't know fellas, My 3,1 came loaded with 3 or 4 HD, and extra super drive and was clean as a whistle. I allotted $2.5k and snagged the machine for $2k. With the extra money I bumped the RAM from 4 to 20GB and added a nice new monitor and some software updates for that hungry ML. It's plenty fast for pro work and the o/p is coming out of hobby mode after a long while. As long as he can boot in 64 he's ahead of the curve, even if just by a hair, but sometimes you can win a race by a hair and saving some dough to put towards updates can be a good thing on a budget.

[shankyboy]

All good info guys. I am seeing a lot of Quad 2.66 and 2.8 for under a grand. Either one better or worse than the other? (aside from horsepower)

[Michael Canavan]

All good info guys. I am seeing a lot of Quad 2.66 and 2.8 for under a grand. Either one better or worse than the other? (aside from horsepower)

Yeah, but don't be fooled by the Ghz rating. The later the model the faster the RAM. Plus certain later four core Mac Pros are significantly faster than those two with a lower gigahertz rating, the 2.4 for example.

[Michael Canavan]

I suppose it's "sluggish" a for an old (2008) 8 core at 3.2 with 20GB of RAM compared to a new Mini, but me thinks there is much more to be gained in buying a robust, made to last machine. Not to mention the lost of PCIe and a host of other stuff you won't find in a lessor machine.

Well yeah it fully depends on what's more important to you. I bought my Mac Pro because I wanted to be able to put in ridiculous amounts of RAM if I wanted to. The minis top out at 16GB, but you do get faster RAM, so it depends on your needs.

Stability wise and longevity wise it's a crapshoot. The Pros use Xeon server chips, sturdy, but much hotter running, the minis run i7 chips which run much cooler. I've used laptops for years for music, and the lack of hard drive space is not really an issue at all with firewire, 800 especially is more than fast enough. Now that they have Thunderbolt...

OK the one concession for laptops at least, (I can't say for the minis) is that the i7 and Core Two Duo chips have built in energy saver features, meaning when the machine is not in use doing heavy work the chips power down to save battery life. This about four years ago caused some problems for some users running heavy tracks with other DAWs, but it was fixed in an OS update.

[HCMarkus]

Take a look at MacTracker. http://mactracker.ca/

As Mike C says...

Yeah, but don't be fooled by the Ghz rating.

Example:
2.66 Mac Pro 1,1 "four core" (2x2) Geekbench score 4833
2.8 Mac Pro 3,1 "four core" (1x4) Geekbench score 5317
2.66 Mac Pro 4,1 "four core" (1x4) Geekbench score 8144
2.8 Mac Pro 5,1 "four core" (1x4) Geekbench score 8839

Any 4,1 EFI can be flashed to a 5,1, which allows the processors to be upgraded to the fastest currently available. I am aware of no physical difference between the 4,1 and 5,1 package.

EDIT: There is one difference I forgot to mention: the 4,1 MPs that use dual processors (2x4 cores) do not use CPUs with Integrated Heat Spreaders ("IHS", the metal top on the Xeon CPU), and the 5,1's do. Because aftermarket CPUs always have the IHS, upgrading CPUs in the dual processor models requires a little more care and is more fiddly. The 4,1 and 5,1 single processor models both use the IHS, so these upgrades are a snap. Google search for more info if considering a dual CPU 4,1 upgrade.