Say it isn't so? Only mono panners on stereo tracks?

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Shooshie
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Re: Say it isn't so? Only mono panners on stereo tracks?

Post by Shooshie »

MIDI Life Crisis wrote:This is a new paradigm with DP8, is it not, Shoosh?
No, I don't think so. You're free to loan your computer and/or its software to anyone you want. You're just not free to distribute it, and it cannot be loaded on two computers at once. If one computer is inaccessible, as in locked in a store over the holidays, then loading it on a 2nd computer, then erasing it before using it on the 1st, would be perfectly legal, if I understand correctly.

Much of my career involved working on others people's computers, and I set up DP when I was there, then erased it when I left. Technically, it was loaded on two computers during that time, but since my computer was thousands of miles away, unused, it didn't count as a 2nd install.

I showed up to work on one computer that was loaded up with warez. Everything you can think of, including DP, was on it. I refused to work until it was erased. I'm sure they just reinstalled it when I left, since the CDs that held it all were sitting right there in a pile. But a guy has to take a stand.

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Re: Say it isn't so? Only mono panners on stereo tracks?

Post by bayswater »

Matt-in-a wrote:Seriously. Damn - I can assure you that was not the intention from either of us. :shock:
What a shame.
This is pretty much how I got a chance to try DP. A music store lent me their copy over a long weekend. When I ordered it, they let me keep their copy until mine arrived. Can't imagine anyone could object to this.
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Re: Say it isn't so? Only mono panners on stereo tracks?

Post by Matt-in-a »

@ Shooshie, Bayswater: Excellent. Awkwardness averted. Trust intact (there is a bigger picture to consider).
@ Mikehalloran - understood, thanks.
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Re: Say it isn't so? Only mono panners on stereo tracks?

Post by Timeline »

I don't get this entire thread.

Trim plugin handles width just fine plus allows LR adjustments. The only thing it won't allow is automation to change width during timeline unless the Effects Parameter is enabled which I hate and leave off anyway. This not being there for me is NO BIG DEAL. For me this is a useless thread. Happy Holidays.
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Re: Say it isn't so? Only mono panners on stereo tracks?

Post by Shooshie »

Timeline wrote:I don't get this entire thread.

Trim plugin handles width just fine plus allows LR adjustments. The only thing it won't allow is automation to change width during timeline unless the Effects Parameter is enabled which I hate and leave off anyway. This not being there for me is NO BIG DEAL. For me this is a useless thread. Happy Holidays.
I think that what the OP is wishing for is convenience. The Trim plugin is probably the most often used plugin in my entire collection. I use it on tracks that have no other plugins. The point is that it would be very nice if MOTU gave it to us built-into the channel strip. It could even be a preference option. But I'd choose it for all my tracks if I could. Better still, a complete overhaul of the panning system, but including the full capabilities of the Trim plugin on every channel strip. Why have to insert a hundred Trim plugins?

I've often wished for this, and I've asked MOTU for it on multiple occasions. I'll probably ask them again! There may be more to the OP's requests, but that seemed like the gist of it.

Shoosh
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Re: Say it isn't so? Only mono panners on stereo tracks?

Post by jamwerks »

Stereo panning is a must for most VI's (and stereo audio tracks ftm). Seems insane not to have that built it to any stereo track. This is 2013 you know, not 1995 :deadhorse:
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Re: Say it isn't so? Only mono panners on stereo tracks?

Post by stephentayler »

Despite the Trim plugin allowing adjustment for stereo tracks, what we still cannot do is fully control the position of stereo material in a surround panner. There are very useful settings for stereo within the surround panners, but you cannot independently adjust the front to back position of each element, they always remain parallel to each other. This would make a big difference to my workflow, as in order to achieve this I have to buss the two sides of the stereo to separate mono surround panners!

Not a useless thread!

SWT
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Re: Say it isn't so? Only mono panners on stereo tracks?

Post by Matt-in-a »

Thanks Shoosh - nicely summed up.
Jamwerks and Stephen - agreed.

In sum - three things.
1. Dual panners on stereo tracks.
Three selectable options makes sense: single mono panner on stereo track (as is currently available in DP) - OR - two knobs (left pan / right pan) - OR - two knobs (pan / width). Pan type is selectable per track as is currently the case with surround panners.

2. Dual surround panners on stereo tracks where output is set to a surround bundle (as highlighted by Stephen).

3. "True" 7.1 surround panning control for "the other" surround layout (as used by DTS, Dolby, Blu-Ray and THX). Often referred to non-judgmentally in my circles as "True" 7.1 simply because Dolby and DTS have adopted the term "True-HD" for their high quality codecs so the term "true" gets used by extension when discussing the associated channel layouts.

---------------------------------------------------------
[the technobabble bit] I have put a quick and dirty graphic together to try and show one of the issues with the way DP handles (or actually doesn't fully handle) 7.1 surround.

DP only does SDDS 7.1 and no other 7.1 formats. It does it very very nicely and the panner choices are elegant and very well thought through - lovely. However for the (in my little corner of the planet anyway) more commonly required surround format used by Dolby, DTS, THX and Blu-Ray, surround mixing in DP is not actually possible. And by "not possible" I do actually mean "not possible".

Please pardon the following not-well-thought-out metaphor, but the clever workaround mentioned here (thanks SWT) when trying to do "true" 7.1 is like sticking two bikes together side by side, calling it a car and entering it in a Daytona 500. I admire the tenacity and the lateral thinking, but no matter the stratospherically high IQ of anyone involved, the workaround is not going to get the DTS/Dolby/THX/Blu-Ray/Daytona-500 job done. (The workaround WILL get around the issue of only having a single surround panner on a stereo track when mixing for the SDDS format though). For "the other" 7.1 formats, even if the extra SDDS front outputs were routed physically to the side speakers there is no plot point on the panner that would allow accurate "between speaker" static placements or movement where side speakers are involved.

Image

Anyway - all I am trying to do here now with the image etc is to give back to the community in some minimal way, hoping my insights will be of use, not to further extend on my initial concerns. At a later stage I hope I may be of more value to the group here. I have a much clearer picture of where DPs considerable strengths lie, and I remain impressed. I also remain surprised at the unexpected absence of some 'features', but I expect that I will purchase and start using it for a sub-set of my needs, and maybe something will come of this conversation via the magical mysterious and as yet unmet (by me anyway) Dave and we can give the Daytona 500 a whirl. :wink:

Edit: PS - there are more 7.1 layout variations than I have covered here. Yay for standards.
Computers: Macs & 1 PC;
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Re: Say it isn't so? Only mono panners on stereo tracks?

Post by Timeline »

stephentayler wrote:Despite the Trim plugin allowing adjustment for stereo tracks, what we still cannot do is fully control the position of stereo material in a surround panner. There are very useful settings for stereo within the surround panners, but you cannot independently adjust the front to back position of each element, they always remain parallel to each other. This would make a big difference to my workflow, as in order to achieve this I have to buss the two sides of the stereo to separate mono surround panners!

Not a useless thread!

SWT
Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I do admit I would take all the channel add ons MOTU will give me but this particular feature is lightyears from making me disavow this DAW. Thus my point. You would have to get a 1000 users bitching about the lack of this suddenly new feature for them to expand the cramped channel we now enjoy. Just my .02c
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Re: Say it isn't so? Only mono panners on stereo tracks?

Post by cuttime »

This has been thrown out before-I'll throw it out again:

http://www.fluxhome.com/products/freewares/stereotool

:deadhorse:
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Re: Say it isn't so? Only mono panners on stereo tracks?

Post by stephentayler »

Timeline wrote:
stephentayler wrote:Despite the Trim plugin allowing adjustment for stereo tracks, what we still cannot do is fully control the position of stereo material in a surround panner. There are very useful settings for stereo within the surround panners, but you cannot independently adjust the front to back position of each element, they always remain parallel to each other. This would make a big difference to my workflow, as in order to achieve this I have to buss the two sides of the stereo to separate mono surround panners!

Not a useless thread!

SWT
Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I do admit I would take all the channel add ons MOTU will give me but this particular feature is lightyears from making me disavow this DAW. Thus my point. You would have to get a 1000 users bitching about the lack of this suddenly new feature for them to expand the cramped channel we now enjoy. Just my .02c
And you are quoting me to make what point? I thought I was making a rather gentle and intelligent observation based on my request for a 'suddenly new feature' seven years after I first made an enquiry both here and to MOTU?

Nobody is bitching, just having an interesting debate about how to do things in DP.

SWT

It's only a useless thread if you are not interested, in which case why comment?

and nobody is disavowing DP, I bloody love it!!
Stephen W Tayler: Sound Artist
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Mac Pro 16Gb RAM, OSX 10.10, DP 8, PT 11, Logic 9.1.8, MOTU Traveler, Ultralite Mk 3 Hybrid, MC MIx, MOTU VIs, Waves, Izotope Everything, Spectrasonics, SoundToys, Slate, Softube, NI , spl Surround Monitor Controller, spl Auditor Headphone amp, Genelec 1031A, 1029 5.1 system, Sontronics Mics, iPad etc..
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Re: Say it isn't so? Only mono panners on stereo tracks?

Post by Timeline »

stephentayler wrote:
Timeline wrote:
stephentayler wrote:Despite the Trim plugin allowing adjustment for stereo tracks, what we still cannot do is fully control the position of stereo material in a surround panner. There are very useful settings for stereo within the surround panners, but you cannot independently adjust the front to back position of each element, they always remain parallel to each other. This would make a big difference to my workflow, as in order to achieve this I have to buss the two sides of the stereo to separate mono surround panners!

Not a useless thread!

SWT
Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I do admit I would take all the channel add ons MOTU will give me but this particular feature is lightyears from making me disavow this DAW. Thus my point. You would have to get a 1000 users bitching about the lack of this suddenly new feature for them to expand the cramped channel we now enjoy. Just my .02c
And you are quoting me to make what point? I thought I was making a rather gentle and intelligent observation based on my request for a 'suddenly new feature' seven years after I first made an enquiry both here and to MOTU?

Nobody is bitching, just having an interesting debate about how to do things in DP.

SWT

It's only a useless thread if you are not interested, in which case why comment?

and nobody is disavowing DP, I bloody love it!!


Just agreeing with those who stated "no big deal" earlier and yes I'm interested and would love to see even some of the stuff I have offered MOTU after 53 years doing audio from tube desks in the late '60s, all the up to DP7.24 today.

Look, you can love the idea all you want but to get MOTU to move on it, even after your 7 years back attempt to loft this idea proves my point. That being, apparently, MOTU does not agree or your not important enough to them and that includes me my friend. It's a good idea and I would like to see it but as much "discussion" or debate or agreement it seems will not bring about change. A fact that unfortunately is true from my experience. I wish I was wrong believe me. I have requested substantial mute functionality changes and issues for mute automation until I was blue in the face for years. Anyway, I have earned my cynicism to date.

Even with extensive knowledge of SSL automation from my past owning SSL systems, which (IM not so HO) blows away every DAW I have ever seen for work flow. THEIR PRIORITIES ARE HIDDEN and ours are on the back burner it seems unless your a freakin rock star or famous film guy that might enhance their bottom line. That is what I have found anyway. Maybe Shooshe or James who seem on the inside track with them might be able to persuade I don't know. Shoosh said he liked the idea so maybe... He brings weight and clarity to many of these threads.

Sorry to bring my opinion of reality to your "discussions" but isn't that what discussions are for? Not just fanboy gibberish right?

Because the trim plug exists, if things with MOTU, with all the back issues with 8 Mac & PC they have scheduled to work, fix or modify over the next year, It's logical to assume things will remain as they have been.

If approached directly with this request I would think MOTU would say good idea, close ranks saying, "But, work flow or not, you can accomplish this with trim."

So it's a pushback. Just a guess of course. Sorry man. I think it would have been better to just put in a feature request and watch what happens. Maybe via this thread 10 users may agree with the same passion as you and I agree discussions are sometimes useful. BTW, I use DP and love it. I'm too old not to or change.

I hope I'm wrong about the implementation of this feature request but I think you'll be adding trim to your templates for a long while.

G
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Re: Say it isn't so? Only mono panners on stereo tracks?

Post by Matt-in-a »

Timeline, interesting points about the history of MOTU and their uptake of user feedback and features generally. Like any company, their user-base are never exposed to the bigger picture of what the company plans are, and understandably so. For all we know there might be a private agreement between Avid and MOTU for each to keep out of the other's space. Who knows - I am not suggesting there is and not suggesting this topic for discussion because we wouldn't know if there was.

If however, as could be interpreted from combining comments across this thread, MOTU have chosen to refrain from adding basic features to their mix interface that (my perspective) result in DP not being a viable alternative for MIXING beyond a certain level, then one must assume that MOTU, who have created a great product and obviously care about what they do with attention to detail, must have an agenda which is beyond our purview to understand.

And Timeline, you hit the nail on the head re SSL (my main console at the moment) and other similar products - the basic stereo pan features being discussed here for example have existed since the late 1960s in the analogue world, and are as fundamental to how we mix music as faders, inserts, sends, PFL and etc are. What I find interesting is your perspective that it is (to paraphrase) no big deal because MOTU don't listen to us so we are not going to get these features anyway unless we are pop stars. I am new to MOTU but not new to software companies so (and I write this with a smile) I TRULY get what you are saying, however I can only say from personal experience that I have been able to make a difference (said with all humility and humbleness) with other recalcitrants (tongue in cheek), so being new to MOTU I am not yet ready to throw in the towel.

This thread was never intended to solve world hunger (tongue in cheek), but regarding value I can see that a concise and lucid set of recommendations or requests have been born from the ideas bounced around here, and maybe now, as you and others have suggested, those people who feel this worthy of attention can separately approach Motu with some reasoned and well thought through suggestions. Of course if this thread comes to the attention of MOTU as well they will be able to see how the ideas were developed and what they were developed in response to. It is then up to Motu to decide what to do with that of course, however if there are no licensing issues, patents, copyrights etc stopping Motu from acting, then we are simply in their hands.

Experience with other companies suggests contact via support or via a corporate website is generally counter-productive for these sorts of suggestions (except with UAD in my experience) so if anyone in the know has suggestions about viable pathways for promoting the idea with Motu please share.

And cuttime - Flux stereo tool is great - but equally so is Motu's trim tool AS A PLUGIN, where neither allow real time control over 50 - 150 channels at the same time when using a control surface and analogue console. Right back at ya - :deadhorse: :wink:
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Re: Say it isn't so? Only mono panners on stereo tracks?

Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

Seems we're running several parallel threads here.

1- should DP have this feature?

2- is said feature of use generally?

3- is there a work around?

and maybe

4- should someone buy DP?

IMO:

1- why not?

2- depends in whom you ask.

3- abso-effen-lutely, several in fact.

4- if this is your deal breaker; no. Goodbye.
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Re: Say it isn't so? Only mono panners on stereo tracks?

Post by Matt-in-a »

MIDI Life Crisis wrote: 3- is there a work around?
IMO
3- abso-effen-lutely, several in fact.
Actually - no. But as per your hint, this thread is likely done, dusted and put to bed.
Thanks all.
See you around in other threads.
Computers: Macs & 1 PC;
OS: 10.6.8 upward;
DAWs: Most of them for different gigs & reasons;
Software & sound libraries: my "Sophie's Choice" would be to save my iLok or my Daughter;
Monitoring: Adam A7X 9.2 surround, Quested VH3208s, Dyn Air 15s, Dyn M3s, NS10s, Gen 8050As.
Gigs: pro composer, arranger, producer, recording engineer, musician and educator - and occasional ham-fisted mastering engineer for desperate friends and their sadly mis-guided acquaintances.
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