MOTU - "BETA Testing" DP8

[buzzsmith]

I installed DP 8 on a separate new partition to avoid all the conflicts between DP 7 and DP 8 components, and I am not seeing any keyboard problems in either version, including the name edit backspace problem. Perhaps in addition to theme, plugin, MC, etc. conflicts, there are also some keyboard conflicts between 7 and 8 causing lost keyboard control.

Good idea that you had there.

It sounds plausible, but I'm certainly no OSX or DP coding expert!

Buzzy

[Shooshie]

I reported this keyboard problem to MOTU today via telephone. I was afraid that even with all the talk about it here, it just might slip under the rug before they get the update out, and we'd be stuck waiting another round before we get some relief. The person I talked to actually had NOT heard about the problem. While talking to him, I was able to demonstrate the arrow-key problem, where the arrow key erases text, rather than positions the cursor. Unfortunately, I couldn't get the backspace thing to happen while talking to him, but he did make a note of it.

The disappearance of so many menus and commands was another he had not heard about, but he's making a note of it, and he may come read this thread. Hopefully the programmers will be made to realize how important this is, and how widespread it is. I said about 60%-70% seem to experience these problems at some point. That's a complete guess, but it seems that more people report having it than NOT having any trouble, so it at least lets them know that it's not one or two people having this problem.

Here's hoping…

Shooshie

[labman]

The person I talked to actually had NOT heard about the problem. While talking to him, I was able to demonstrate the arrow-key problem, where the arrow key erases text, rather than positions the cursor. ...
The disappearance of so many menus and commands was another he had not heard about, but he's making a note of it, and he may come read this thread.

Shooshie

These two things you mention concern me greatly. (re: that the folks answering the phone are not apprised of the issues) Because I had posted those and other issues to techlinks 10 days ago. I also had called and spoke to someone yesterday. (Not nicole or Lorne) The gentleman told me he wasnt aware of these things. Just like you were told. Arghhhh

So somewhere... someone... better be doing something.

[James Steele]

So somewhere... someone... better be doing something.

I'm sure they are.

God how I hate "point-zero" releases around here.

[Gravity Jim]

Some things to keep in mind:

1. Perhaps more people who come to this Forum are reporting these problems than not. That doesn't mean that a majority of DP users are having problems. People aren't likely to log here to tell everybody how perfectly the software is running: except for a small group of regulars they come here because they're having trouble.

2. Phone support not being aware of the problem doesn't indicate that MOTU engineers aren't aware. Phone support isn't trained to commiserate with users: they're trained to solve problems. If they don't have a solution, then they're not likely to know anything at all. This doesn't mean MOTU isn't working on it.

3. MOTU engineers do know about this. I thought I was having the keyboard problem and reported it, and when they asked for specifics, I directed them to this very thread about 10 days ago. As it turned out, my own problem was a false alarm: I haven't been able to reproduce the loss of keyboard function again no matter what I do, so my system is actually running perfectly (I'm pretty sure now that the first instance was operator misunderstanding... I was experimenting with key commands I havent used, and suspect that I told the program to do something but didn't know I had done it, or even that I could). But the MOTU guys I communcated with were able to reproduce at least part of the problem and have been looking into it, and I know have gleaned some information from this thread.

I have my own theories on what's up which I shared with MOTU, and they're including the possibility in their investigation, so I know they're listening and taking it seriously. The idea that MOTU, or any software company, would release buggy software and then do nothing about it is kind of silly.

Point-oh releases are always problematic. Me, I'm running DP8 in 64-bit mode under OS X 10.8.2, with dual widescreen monitors on the stock video card in an early 2008 MacPro, and am not experiencing any of the problems others are describing: it's not sluggish or laggy, the keyboard doesn't lose focus, I can even run full-screen QT video locked to transport without il effects. I'm creating new projects and working on projects created in DP 7 and haven't hit a snag yet. So from my point of view, DP8 is a successful release that requires some minor tweaking just as DP7 did, and we can all expect it to be as perfect as software this complicated can get very shortly.

[Shooshie]

Some things to keep in mind:

1. Perhaps more people who come to this Forum are reporting these problems than not. That doesn't mean that a majority of DP users are having problems. People aren't likely to log here to tell everybody how perfectly the software is running: except for a small group of regulars they come here because they're having trouble.

Hi Jim,

Over the years I've kind of gotten a feel for whether a problem is widespread or not. The keyboard problem is more common than most problems we see here. In 2005 I created a database in Excel, and put out a questionnaire for our members in order to track down a disturbing bug that everyone else had, but that I did NOT have. It was surprising what all we learned from that adventure. First, it's a heck of a lot of work. 2nd, it confirmed the frequency of its occurrence, and showed that the problem was extremely widespread, 3rd, it showed absolutely and without doubt what was causing the problem. Once we knew the fix, it was easily fixed, and everyone's problems cleared up.

But what caused me to do the database was realizing that being one of the few who almost never experience problems, it was too easy for me to pretend that problems are because of something someone else is doing, and that it's their fault, so I really shouldn't worry about it. I decided to do something, to track down, find, and eliminate the problem once and for all, even though I didn't have it. The whole experience made me a lot more sympathetic to others' problems, as well as intuitive about which ones are genuine, which are user error, and how widespread they are.

If we don't get results on the update which MOTU will probably put out in the next month or two, then I'll probably repeat that database, and do another questionnaire. It really is the only way to positively identify the cause of these things, short of having the code and debugging software.

Back in 2005, the results of that data mining showed that a new driver that MOTU had delivered was the culprit. 100% of respondents with that driver had the problem, and 100% of people with the problem were using that driver. I bundled up my drivers in a .zip file, offered them to the forum, and the problem was solved. I'm sure this time it's something similar. I just hope that MOTU finds it, because doing those questionnaires and mining the data in a spreadsheet in Excel requires a lot of work and time. A lot more than I've got to give. But if it takes that..

Until then, please understand that we're dealing with a major bug, and that those who don't have it should be supportive of those who do.

Thanks,
Shooshie

[MIDI Life Crisis]

I think we're all pretty concerned with any reported irregularities. How would someone like me, who is in the group that doesn't have the focus bug (but have seen other GUI issues in DP8 and reported them with screen recordings)... how might we support those with problems we don't have? Tell me and I'm happy to help. I have often asked members to send me project files to test and some have, but what can we do to help, for example, with the focus problem?

[Shooshie]

I think we're all pretty concerned with any reported irregularities. How would someone like me, who is in the group that doesn't have the focus bug (but have seen other GUI issues in DP8 and reported them with screen recordings)... how might we support those with problems we don't have? Tell me and I'm happy to help. I have often asked members to send me project files to test and some have, but what can we do to help, for example, with the focus problem?

You don't have to do anything.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

But I'm feeling guilty now and I want to do something ☺ In fact, I AM guilty and must be punished...

[James Steele]

You know... after running the forum for so many years and being a rather high profile and tireless advocate for DP, I *do* have some sources at MOTU. Sometimes that makes me privy to some things-- not often. I would never betray the trust of friends within MOTU. But I will say that from what I've observed, MOTU is way out ahead on these things and based on what I've seen from them over the years, I would be surprised if they aren't checking this board and already working on problems.

You know, it's popular to question the competence of beta testers, but in many cases there are just issues that you will not uncover until software is installed on the computers of several thousand users... not a small pool of beta testers. These things always work themselves out by the time of a .01 release. It's just the nature of complex software anymore. I imagine graphic issues being a problem are no surprise with the change over to being all Cocoa and MOTU's own video engine. Remember how fragile the pre-rendering felt when it appeared with what? 6.0?

MOTU's making adjustments right now. I have every confidence they'll sort it out soon. Myself, I'm actually getting along quite well with DP 8.0, but then I'm not exactly stress testing it. I don't have templates with hundreds of MIDI tracks and lots and lots of VIs.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

I don't have templates with hundreds of MIDI tracks and lots and lots of VIs.

By the same token, the speedometer in my car goes up to 140 MPH but that doesn't necessarily mean I have to try and drive it that fast. If I did, I would expect different results than what an intelligent, conscientious driver would experience.

[Shooshie]

Well, I could solve every one of my problems by going back to DP7.24, but then I'd be going back on my promise to myself to stay with 64 bit stuff from now on, and I don't want to mess with Waves8 32 bit again, and all my other installations. I'm just being a stupid, stubborn idiogeek by refusing to do any less than great guns ahead on DP8. And, the day I go to all the trouble to go back to DP7 will (I guarantee you) be the day MOTU releases 8.01 that fixes all this stuff, and then (I guarantee you) I'll be hopping mad for going through all of that trouble again.

The other alternative is to take a vacation and forget about DP until 8.01 arrives. Maybe THAT'S what I should do. Just go to St. Thomas for a few days, then work my way up the islands until I get to the Keys. By rowboat.

Instead, I insist on trying to find a solution to this stupid keyboard problem so that I can work naturally in DP8 without having to wonder if my last action actually did anything or not. (and more often than not, it doesn't) So, you guys are just going to have to excuse or otherwise put up with my snarkiness until either DP8.01 comes, or a rowboat comes to pick me up for St. Thomas.

And (I guarantee you) it's tempting.

Shoosh

[MIDI Life Crisis]

+1 I ain't going back to 32 bits not no way, no how. Full speed ahead!

[Guitar Gaz]

Having logged with Motu Tech Link the crashing problem with Rewire and Reason I did make the point that I have paid £160 to be a Beta tester - and that this contrasts completely with Propellerhead for whom I have been a Beta tester for several years - they never release a version of Reason (or Record) until it has been properly tested by users like myself. They then release it and you can choose to pay the upgrade path.

As others are having the same problems as me and 7.24 worked perfectly with Reason and Rewire, clearly something has changed. Beta testing by Propellerhead works - you don't have to pay for the beta software but you have to be a registered user of Reason and you volunteer to Beta test. I have done it willingly and for free - and it helps Propellerhead release a version that works properly so when you pay for it there are few problems. I am a bit miffed that I have had to pay Motu to be a Beta tester. I would rather have waited 3 months and bought a product that works. Some people are being kind to Motu - Propellerhead's behaviour does contrast starkly . I await a further reply from Motu, or an updated version. I don't think that is too much to ask when I have shelled out over the years - much as I like DP and Motu I do expect their product to work.

[FMiguelez]

This was not just a "regular update".

You know DP8 is now 100% Cocoa AND it's 64-bits AND they put out a Windoze version.

It really surprises me how some people, in the middle of a project, without backups, simply go out there and get a .0 new release (that was rewritten from the ground up) and then comlpain and act surprised when they have issues. I mean, REALLY???