DP, VEPRo5 & MIDI routing?

williemyers · Post by **williemyers** » Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:12 am

hello all.

I am running the VEPro5 demo on a single Mac (MacPro, 8-core, 10.6.

, using it as a plugin on Digital Performer 7.42. The main reason that i am considering VEPro5 is to take the "load" off of DP, and it seems to be doing that very well! But i am very confused about one issue and I hope you all can explain it. It has to do with "multiple" MIDI channels showing up on "multiple" instances of "multiple" VI's....whew!, too many "multiples!! Apologies in advance for being lengthy here, but I want to give as many details as possible. Here goes.....

Prior to trying VEPro, if i wanted to run (say) 3 VI's within DP, I could load (say) a single instance of Kontakt, a single instance of PLAY and a single instance of Aria. The result would be a total of 48 unique MIDI channels, 16 on each VI, and each of those 48 unique channels would be accessible from within DP.

Now, running VEPro5, I *thought* that I could open a single instance of VEPro5 in DP, then load in those same 3 VI's in to VEPro5. I can do this, but I no longer have access to 48 unique MIDI channels from within DP....just 16 unique channels? So that, when I open a new track with it's output to "VEPro5-1", it speaks to all 3 VI's at the same time?

Am I just not understanding how to route MIDI in VEPRo5? Or, if I wanted to accomplish what I did before using VEPRo5, would I need to open *3* instances of VEPro5 in DP - - each one, containing a *single* VI? I suppose this might do it, but if I'm using 12-14 VI's, that's an awful lot of VEPro5's to deal with!

Thanks in advance for your help, VEPRo5 looks like a winner, just need to understand the MIDI routing...

timmeh · Post by **timmeh** » Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:18 am

You need to open VEPro5 in Server Mode then within the server create one instance for each VI that you want to create. From there you simply create an instrument track in DP for each instance in VEPro. Once you've done that open the VEPro instrument in DP and connect to the instance in VEPro.

Hope that clears it up for you.

williemyers · Post by **williemyers** » Tue Jul 24, 2012 4:20 pm

timmeh wrote:You need to open VEPro5 in Server Mode then within the server create one instance for each VI that you want to create. From there you simply create an instrument track in DP for each instance in VEPro. Once you've done that open the VEPro instrument in DP and connect to the instance in VEPro.

Hope that clears it up for you.

timmeh, sincere thanks for your reply. not being at all familiar with how VEPro's *supposed* to work, I have to say I'm still fairly confused.

I got a note back from VSL, saying that I needed to enter Event Plugins, or something like that, but can't make any sense of that. And if I am understanding your explanation, if I would want to run, say 12 instances of Kontakt, *each* with their won 16 (or more) unique MIDI channels, then I would need to create 12 instances of VEPro5, each containing a single instance of Kontakt5? Is that correct?
hmmm...
but again, sincere thanks. so many folks here rave about VEPro, but you were the one (the only one) who took time to try and help out.

wrathy · Post by **wrathy** » Wed Jul 25, 2012 5:54 am

Hi there.

I use multiple instances for each "section" of the Orch, or sometimes multiple instances for the same section. But that's just because that's how I started when VE was only 16 MIDI chns/instance.
Now you can go all the way up to 512 per instance.

This is how:
Each Vienna Ensemble PRO instance offers up to 32 MIDI ports with 16 MIDI channels each (= 512 MIDI channels) and a virtually unlimited number of audio ports. You can set the number of ports in the Server Preferences of each instance.
So you set up the PORTS in VEPro (I am on 4 but perhaps you are demoing 5?) and then access them in DP via PORT/MIDI Channel

Does that help?
best.

williemyers · Post by **williemyers** » Wed Jul 25, 2012 6:59 am

hey guys (wrathy & timmeh), again sincere thanks for responding. I'm *still* trying to wrap my head around the concept of VEPro5, and what it's capable of, and how to set it up to do it.
In my "pre-VEPro5" days, if I wanted to write strings, I would;
a. open a new DP sequence,
b. create 5 instances of Kontakt5 (5 x multis), one for each section of the string orchestra ,
c. rename each K5 multi with the appropriate section name (Vln1, Vln2, Vla,Cli, DB),
d. populate each of those K5 instances with the necessary articulation/instruments,
and off I'd go.
In my MIDI output section for any given MIDI track, I would see "Vln1/1-16, Vln2/1-16, etc.", allowing me to assign that MIDI track to a unique K5 instrument on a unique MIDI channel.
This is what I'm trying to accomplish, using VEPro5. I think what I'm still not getting is, if I'm trying to accomplish the above in DP w/VEPro5, am I creating one VEPro5 instance (in DP) that contains 5 x Kontakt5 multis, or 5 VEPro5 instances (in DP), each of which contains only a single Kontakt5 multi?
Or some combination thereof?
hmmm..,
again, thanks for your assistance!

frankf · Post by **frankf** » Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:37 am

wrathy wrote:Hi there.

I use multiple instances for each "section" of the Orch, or sometimes multiple instances for the same section. But that's just because that's how I started when VE was only 16 MIDI chns/instance.
Now you can go all the way up to 512 per instance.

This is how:
Each Vienna Ensemble PRO instance offers up to 32 MIDI ports with 16 MIDI channels each (= 512 MIDI channels) and a virtually unlimited number of audio ports. You can set the number of ports in the Server Preferences of each instance.
So you set up the PORTS in VEPro (I am on 4 but perhaps you are demoing 5?) and then access them in DP via PORT/MIDI Channel

Does that help?
best.

Are you running these instances on the same Mac as DP? If so, how do you distribute the cores in VEP Server. This is what still confuses me. Thanks.

frankf · Post by **frankf** » Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:47 am

williemyers wrote:hey guys (wrathy & timmeh), again sincere thanks for responding. I'm *still* trying to wrap my head around the concept of VEPro5, and what it's capable of, and how to set it up to do it.
In my "pre-VEPro5" days, if I wanted to write strings, I would;
a. open a new DP sequence,
b. create 5 instances of Kontakt5 (5 x multis), one for each section of the string orchestra ,
c. rename each K5 multi with the appropriate section name (Vln1, Vln2, Vla,Cli, DB),
d. populate each of those K5 instances with the necessary articulation/instruments,
and off I'd go.
In my MIDI output section for any given MIDI track, I would see "Vln1/1-16, Vln2/1-16, etc.", allowing me to assign that MIDI track to a unique K5 instrument on a unique MIDI channel.
This is what I'm trying to accomplish, using VEPro5. I think what I'm still not getting is, if I'm trying to accomplish the above in DP w/VEPro5, am I creating one VEPro5 instance (in DP) that contains 5 x Kontakt5 multis, or 5 VEPro5 instances (in DP), each of which contains only a single Kontakt5 multi?
Or some combination thereof?
hmmm..,
again, thanks for your assistance!

I'm very new to VEP5, but to approximate your pre VEP setup, you'd want to set up a separate instance of VEP for each Kontakt instance, rename the first instance KT VLN1 or whatever, then the same for your other instances. If you are using multiple outputs from each KT5 multi and returning them via busses and aux tracks, you will have to configure them in the Bundles window as you did before.
HTH,
Frank

malditoyanki · Post by **malditoyanki** » Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:33 am

Vienna recommends NOT creating a separate instance of VEpro for each plugin (Kontakt, PLAY, Stylus etc.) Rather, load all of them into one giant instance and essentially create one big mixing board with all VI's, buses, FX and subgroups. Remember in "preferences" to set cores available to highest possible.

In this setup from DP you will have only ONE VEpro connection for audio, but MANY connections for MIDI (even inputs.)

PMortise · Post by **PMortise** » Wed Jul 25, 2012 11:34 am

malditoyanki wrote:Vienna recommends NOT creating a separate instance of VEpro for each plugin (Kontakt, PLAY, Stylus etc.) Rather, load all of them into one giant instance and essentially create one big mixing board with all VI's, buses, FX and subgroups. Remember in "preferences" to set cores available to highest possible.

In this setup from DP you will have only ONE VEpro connection for audio, but MANY connections for MIDI (even inputs.)

That is correct that Vienna recommends that - and I used to go by that for awhile. But after a spell of it not quite working out as advertised (especially after LASS's A.R.C. hit the scene), I decided to experiment. So, for a couple of months now I've been using 5 instances of VE Pro for LASS, one for PLAY percussive libraries, and one with a combo of K5, Play and Omnisphere. My setup gets the most breathing room with VE Pro set to 3 threads per instance, K5's MP support set to 12 and KMS turned off.

I know this is contradictory to what you'll find on the Vienna forum, etc. But I can tell you from my own experience that this is what's been working for me. Obviously, YMMV.

frankf · Post by **frankf** » Wed Jul 25, 2012 12:08 pm

malditoyanki wrote:Vienna recommends NOT creating a separate instance of VEpro for each plugin (Kontakt, PLAY, Stylus etc.) Rather, load all of them into one giant instance and essentially create one big mixing board with all VI's, buses, FX and subgroups. Remember in "preferences" to set cores available to highest possible.

In this setup from DP you will have only ONE VEpro connection for audio, but MANY connections for MIDI (even inputs.)

I've read this, thanks. I've done no testing to compare all in 1 or each in its own, but I can attest to the act that all in 1 setup of VEP with DP WAS confusing, at least to me. Here's what I ran into in my recent installation. I hope there's an easier way. Maybe my confusion was the same as OP's.

(I use VEP5 on the same Mac as DP)

-while VEP5 AU publishes 24 outputs per instance to DP, it only allows access to 16 MIDI channels/instance. So it's possible that a single Kontakt multi can use all 16 MIDI channels. Maybe there's a way to change this in VEP5 but I haven't found it. See below for details.

-the assignments of MIDI inputs and VEP audio outputs is confusing when loading more than 1 VI into a single VEP5 instance. (Again maybe I'm missing something). Here's an example from my last project: I put 1 Kontakt5 (10 MIDI inputs, 4 stereo outs for LASS string sections) and one Omnisphere (2 MIDI inputs, 2 stereo outs) inside a single VEP instance. First the MIDI: I assigned MIDI 1-10 to Kontakt and MIDI 11-12 to Omnisphere. This meant I had to reassign ALL my Omnisphere multis parts 1&2 from MIDI 1-2 to 11-12 and do the same in associated DP MIDI tracks. The same with the outputs: I had to assign the 4 stereo Kontakt outs to VEP channel inputs, then assign those channels outs to VEP stereo outs 1-4, then the same with Omnisphere but assign its channel outputs to VEP outs 5-6. Then go back it DP Bundles window and make sure the published Instrument inputs from VEP were connected correctly to busses I was using as inputs to my VI aux tracks. What I lose is the intuitive connection, in this scenario, of Omnisphere MIDI inputs being seen as Omnisphere 1-2 and outputs 1-2 being seen as 1-2. Instead they were MIDI 11-12 and stereo Outputs 5-6 respectively. It took me a few attempts to get my template set up for this and I name all my busses. And the business of remembering to change every Omnisphere multis MIDI input. Now I added a 3rd VI....no it was too much to add VI-3 with VI-3 MIDI-1, OUT-1 actually being MIDI-13, OUT-7-8 and changing every VI-3 multi's parts to reflect this. I never got to VI-3.

-so using the above example, I used 12 of 16 available MIDI channels. If I had wanted to add another instance of Kontakt, I'd be limited to 4 MIDI channels if using a single VEP instance. So it's not clear how Vienna expects me to load all VIs in a single instance.

Again this is using VEP on the same Mac as DP

Needless to say, I'll welcome DP8 and returning to the single host paradigm. OP, I understand your confusion.
Frank

PMortise · Post by **PMortise** » Wed Jul 25, 2012 12:54 pm

Are you using VE Pro Server and the Vienna Pro Event Inputs?

frankf · Post by **frankf** » Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:04 pm

PMortise wrote:Are you using VE Pro Server and the Vienna Pro Event Inputs?

Not the Event Inputs. I'm not familiar with this. How does hat help? Your previous very specific post re multiple instances is interesting. I'm going to give it a try. How many cores does your MacPro have? Did you change any of the DP audio engine settings such as Work Priority? Sorry for all the questions.

frankf · Post by **frankf** » Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:20 pm

Just read the chapter in the manual and will check it out for more than 16 channels, but still like the multi instance approach from an organizational POV.. Thanks again.

williemyers · Post by **williemyers** » Wed Jul 25, 2012 2:01 pm

frankf wrote:Just read the chapter in the manual and will check it out for more than 16 channels,

Frank, which chapter (re: more than 16 MIDI channels) in the VEPro5 manual would that be?
thanks

PMortise · Post by **PMortise** » Wed Jul 25, 2012 2:14 pm

frankf wrote:Not the Event Inputs. I'm not familiar with this. How does hat help? Your previous very specific post re multiple instances is interesting. I'm going to give it a try. How many cores does your MacPro have? Did you change any of the DP audio engine settings such as Work Priority? Sorry for all the questions.

I'm on a 2.66 12-core with 32GB, buffer is 512, Host Buffer Multiplier =1, and Work Priority "High".

The Event Inputs are what let's you get more than 16 MIDI outs from a single instance of VE Pro. I'm assuming you already understand the audio routing so I'll just explain the MIDI. Try this:

1. Launch VE Pro Server and create an instance with 3 V.I.'s. For instance 2 K5, and 1 Omnisphere. For demo purposes let's load up 16 LASS Vlns in the 1st K5, 16 LASS Vlas in the 2nd K5, and a some synthy low strings in Omnisphere. You'll see why later. It would be a good idea to name the instance at this point too. LEt's call it "STRINGS".
2. At the top of the V.I.'s channels set the first K5's MIDI port to "1", the second K5's MIDI port to "2", and the Omnisphere to MIDI port "3". All their MIDI channels (also at the top of the strip) should be set to "Omni".
3. In DP create a VE Pro instrument and connect it to the server instance "STRINGS" you just made. This part is probably what you're familiar with, and from here would go on to create MIDI tracks in DP and assign to this, but don't. Here's where it gets different.
4. Also in DP, create a Vienna Pro Event Input. Also assign it to the VE Pro Server instance "STRINGS" and make sure the MIDI INPUT is set to "1". Name this Event Input strip "LASS Vlns".
5. Create another Vienna Pro Event Input. Also assign it to the VE Pro Server instance "STRINGS" and make sure the MIDI INPUT is set to "2". Name this Event Input strip "LASS Vlas".
Create another Vienna Pro Event Input. Also assign it to the VE Pro Server instance "STRINGS" and make sure the MIDI INPUT is set to "3". Name this Event Input strip "OMNI".
6. NOW create your MIDI tracks in DP, and assign them to the "LASS Vlns", LASS Vlas", and OMNI as if they were 3 separate instances with 16 MIDI channels each.

I find that for my setup, a combination of each section of LASS using it's own instance in VE Pro (so no Event Inputs there), and most of the others on 1 instance (using Event Inputs) works best for me. Of course, that's the beauty of VE Pro - it's flexible.

I hope this helps.

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