Which string library is the best? Help!

[FMiguelez]

Agreed.
The Release fader works well, especially for long notes where using the sustain pedal is obviously not an option.

For shorter notes I feel that the release fader gives them certain unnatural artifacts in some patches. But like you say, experimentation is key to see what works best.

OTOH, the release fader is key for the repetition patches. The best setting will vary, according to the current tempo. What I don't like about this is that, once you set it to perfection, the sound gets messed up if one changes the tempo and one needs to set it correctly again

In my case, for short notes, when they are too close together and extending the note is not an option, I think the sustain is the best solution, since it allows the necessary overlapping without that "sucking vacum" sound that is created when the MIDI note is too short and cuts the release part of the sample. This is the same as overlapping the notes without actually overlapping them (with VI Pro you can't overlap notes because the next note won't sound).

[FMiguelez]

BTW, any suggestions on how to emulate a Jeté phrase (with 3 or 4 bow bounces)?

I wish there were a special patch for this. I've tried simulating the sound by using one of the dynamic repetition patches (with decrescendo - 5 repetitions). It almost sounds right, but not quite... If I compare my results with a recording of it, like that passage by Rimsky Korsakov's Capricho Español, it sounds wrong...

Using Spiccato doesn't sound realistic... I'm not sure what else to try...


Is there even a library with that off-the-string effect?

[Frodo]

I know that Solo Strings 1 has some ricochet articulations in the Extended library, but that's the one Extended license I never bought!!

I don't know how measured or unmeasured the ricochet is to assess now usable it would be at times when something would be needed that were a little closer to a true jeté (a tad more measured or controlled than ricochet). But, Vienna Instruments Pro is loaded with time-based editing features, so there could be more flexibility than there might be with the regular version where manipulating the ricochet patch would likely render better results.

Your attempt to simulate it is as clever as anything I could think of. I'll have to experiment more with this myself because that one single Extended license is still around $400. Ouch.

[David Polich]

You know, all of these replies on this thread confirm once again, for me,
that there is no "best" string library. It is really up to the skill of
the person using the library - the MIDI performance and editing that performance.

Playing idiomatically - that is, emulating the behavior of the instrument
you are working with - is something a lot of people don't really invest enough time in, or bother with at all. I know it sounds too simple, but
really, if you want realistic string parts, it's best to learn to play
like a string player does.

I've heard some amazing demos for all of the various software orchestral
libraries out there, and yet I have found that after purchasing a library,
I'll launch it and call up a string patch and sit there wondering how in the
world the demo programmers made it sound so good, while I'm feeling like I'm
all thumbs.

It's the skill of the driver more than it is the car, so to speak. Or to
paraphrase what I heard someone once say - "A chimp in front of a computer is still a chimp".

[Frodo]

I agree that discussions about what's "the best" are somewhat inherent in their futility. The question is probably better worded as, "What's the best *for me*?" or "What is your favorite, and why"?

There's something quite healthy about sharing notes on skill sets. How did that person get such a great sound from that particular orchestra library? I've often found myself half thumbs and half toes with some of this stuff-- but I'm not content with leaving it at that. A part of me wants to churn out tracks and scores as good as the best of them out there. For that, it takes a great arrangement/orchestration, but that's not enough. It takes top-shelf engineering skills to tuck all the elements into place.

But David, you make a great point about playing idiomatically. There are lots of times when a keyboard controller "can be" one's worst enemy when it comes to dealing with orchestral samples. A wind controller of some sort and/or some sticks on drum pads go far to produce more convincing results. Yet, that gets into a whole other set of skill sets to master.

Then, there are those annoying project deadlines that will snarf the time that would otherwise be used to give attention to performance details. There were so many threads once upon a time about how to successfully create proper string divisis. DVZ Strings appeared, but for all the hardware and software required in its first incarnation, one could have had a VERY nice car!! Along comes LASS, and divisis were not only doable, they were way more affordable.

I carefully bring this up because on some level it *is* about the quality and integrity of the tools in use to the extent that the skill set and imagination of the user just may exceed what a given VI is capable of. A great carpenter with a bad hammer is not going to be the best carpenter he can be. (At the same time, a bad carpenter with a great hammer could simply be an accident going somewhere to occur.)

It's such a mixed bag with software when learning curves play against feature sets and high price points.

One thing we don't talk enough about is just what our individual goals are-- how we use software. Some people write for real orchestras while others only do audio tracks. If a DAW is part of the realization process, then it's easy to overlook or forget that different people can use the same software for very different purposes and in very different ways.

In addition to performance skills or skill sets, there's also quite a diversity where a *balance* of skills are concerned. You and I might have identical skill sets, but the elements within our respective skill sets may be differently accorded. That doesn't make us bad people by any means. It only means that there might well be something to learn by putting our noggins together.

You're right, though: What's best? Who knows!

[FMiguelez]

"What's the best X library" is probably the wrong question to ask, but I think what most people mean with that question is: which is the library with the biggest potential, the one that has the necessary tools that would allow me to sound great as long as I exploit it to its maximum?

Listening to the work of a library-programer master helps to be able to listen to the potential of the library at its very best, so the prospect buyer can see what he could achieve in a best-case scenario, at least theoretically. This, of course, does not mean that he could obtain the same results, though. But then he would know how much he could expect from it when he takes the time to study it and investigate it at its deepest.

Guys, I have a question: Are any of you using wind controllers for VSL? If so, could you elaborate a bit on this point, please?

@Frodo:
Still no luck with the Jeté, BTW
I have the solo strings, but I haven´t seen there something useful for it. I will check it in more detail later (thanks for the reminder).

[mhschmieder]

Here's a little trick I employ sometimes -- especially if I want an idiomatic candenza or bridge section that sounds more "personal" than the more rigidly arranged portion of an orchestral or chamber piece I have written: play the pat on a synth initially!

I specifically select a sine wave type patch with a bit of saw tooth in it (either a wave shape between the two, or both waveforms assigned to different OSC's and layered). Sometimes even a Theremin patch. My analog synths have EXCELLENT mono-pressure response, and I can then re-map this to vibrato or something else once I reassign to a string library.

The analog synths give me more tactile and reactive feedback to my playing than a static string library, where I would have to memorize and internalize gobs of special keyswitches and/or controller assignments to have any hope of coming up with a "natural" sounding solo or cadenza -- or even an expressively played lead line.

A wind controller can also be used effectively for this purpose. Then reassign the CC's later to something the string library can use for proper expression and/or vibrato and/or other playing characteristics.

I am truly amazed at how expressive the Minimoog Voyager is, and also how it makes use of note off velocity (something I brought up earlier, but I still don't know whether much software can take advantage of this information; certainly the Voyager's sound engine does as I can hear the difference quite clearly). I think it has an even better monopressure aftertouch implementation than Dave Smith's Evolver or Prophet '08, but of course I go to the P'08 if I want to enter a polyphonic passage in real time.

Too often I am stuck using notation tools to initially enter parts or edit and extend existing parts, just because it's faster than "hooking everything up" and doesn't get messed up by latency. But once I have refined an arrangement, I sometimes go back and RE-RECORD the MIDI for certain parts in real-time using the Minimoog or Prophet, to insert some humanity into the phrasing, etc. At that point I am usually triggering VSL or other libraries directly, using the patch that I intend to apply to the final rendering. I then might do a little cleanup and re-render, if I have unwanted note overlaps or stray "extreme" note on velocities, etc.

[mhschmieder]

BTW I haven't had a chance to try the suggestions here yet, but hope to tomorrow night or SAT. I've been working twelve hour days and then using my "evenings" (actually my "midnight to 3am shift") to do project preparation work (cut/paste sections, change keys/tempi/etc.) instead, so that I can maximize my larger blocks of free time once I get them back.

One thing I may look into is whether something like the Miroslav library is "simpler" for initial mock-up when it comes to triggering something that will at least initially give a fairly fluid phrasing without constant patch-switching. I don't think the BC-friendly patches are found outside of the woodwinds/brass (can't check easily from work), and my recollection is that it was the worst of the lot when it came to "quick and dirty" renditions (hiccups, sudden endings of notes, etc.), but it's been awhile since I used it.

[Frodo]

...

One thing I may look into is whether something like the Miroslav library is "simpler" for initial mock-up when it comes to triggering something that will at least initially give a fairly fluid phrasing without constant patch-switching. I don't think the BC-friendly patches are found outside of the woodwinds/brass (can't check easily from work), and my recollection is that it was the worst of the lot when it came to "quick and dirty" renditions (hiccups, sudden endings of notes, etc.), but it's been awhile since I used it.

I like Miro for quick mock-ups because its demands on memory usage is way lower by comparison to EWQLSO and VSL. The full version of Miro is only, like, 7 GB and it works fine from a single internal drive. I've got EWQLSO and VSL on an eSATA stack across 5 drives. It's nice not to have turn on the stack if it's not necessary.

[Frodo]

...

How do you get realistic sounding detache? Every time I try detache in VSL, I give up and compromise on other articulations just because the detache sounds so dreadful no matter how I tweak my MIDI data. I especially have trouble with bass sections, and end up going to REPETITIONS performances as nothing else seems to handle repeated notes or intervals well. I don't run into this problem with woodwinds and brass, so it must be my unfamiliarity with how to properly render strings?

Although this might seem O.T., it is in my opinion a major criteria for selecting "which string library is best", as per the original post.

@ mhschmieder--

I don't know if you have VSL Pro2, but here's a tutorial video on their very flexible time stretching feature. It's envelope-based, which means that you can time-stretch just part of the sample (beginning, middle, end) without impacting other aspects of the sample.

VSLPro2 time-strech tutorial

***

Now, much of this may also be possible with Mach5 and Kontakt. I offer it here to say that when bending VIs to the needs of one's musical intent, editing samples becomes more indispensable than many people realize. That should hold true for just about any sample library. It's just that it seems to have gotten a bit easier to do of late.

Note that near the end of the video they use a single-note brass sample. That should give you some ideas about your detaché. That said-- I'm still not completely sure how far this can be pushed to address FM's question about jeté. That would require having the full extended library of the Solo Strings 1 for the most honest start with their ricochét patches.

[mhschmieder]

Thanks, Frodo -- I'm giving myself a day or two break from orchestral stuff while I recover from the critique I received the other day and decide whether to act on it or move on.

Hopefully this weekend I'll feel I have time to focus on improved articulations and production, but the critique makes me feel I focused too much on that at the expense of improving my overall level of sophistication of arrangements and phrasing/etc.

I probably need to switch over to standalone notation packages for my orchestral work at this point, as I feel using MIDI (whether by hand, via keyboard, or other techniques) may be boxing me into a habit of writing "orchestrated instrumental newage/pop music" vs. classical music.

[mhschmieder]

I'm still on slight break from returning to my Impressionists Suite, while I give more time for perspective on whether I need to focus more on bumping it up a notch before going forward (as mentioned elsewhere, I probably subconsciously dumb down my classical compositions when working with MIDI and sample libraries vs. going straight to a notation program).

Instead, I whipped out a klezmer arrangement of New Order's "Confusion" yesterday on short order. This will serve as a template for some other upcoming projects, because it marks the first time I have braved Gypsy-style string playing using MIDI and sample libraries.

I am happy to report that the tzigane patches in Vienna Symphonic Library are nothing short of remarkable. It makes me wonder why I even bothered buying Quantum leap Gypsy, which I have never successfully used without it breaking up (no matter how much I tweak the note gaps or overlaps, note velocities, etc.). I don't think I even knew VSL had Gypsy violin and viola until recently! Given that this style shows up in classical literature, I should have thought to look sooner.

[KenNickels]

Most of the discussion here has been about sounds and functionality, but something to consider as well is technical support after the sale. I'll offer my 2 cents on EW, because that's what I use. I agree with some comments here and around that it's not that great. The advice is terse to the point of being cryptic, and most things can be found on the web site which the tech merely refers you to. Response times vary, but 24hours is common. There is no phone contact, which is my biggest complaint, but that is common for these times unfortunately. MOTU is superior because they have it. however, you may never have the need for tech support because the product is very stable and engineered well (and you very well may be more technically savvy than me )

There's a youtube comparison between Kontact and Play, and Kontact loads faster and uses less CPU by a large measure. But Play is fine on my system. I do sense a certain arrogance with EW which is unfortunate considering all of the competition out there. If you're considering EW, you might ask around a little for others experiences. I've been in the tech support business for many years so perhaps I'm a little more critical than others.

[mhschmieder]

Now there is an interesting new player from 8DIO called "Adagio", which introduces many different legato styles to cover as many note transition categories as possible:

http://8dio.com/?btp_product=adagio-violins-vol-1

I am having trouble getting past my dislike of the raw material, so will try to listen again and focus JUST on the string execution.

Note that this new library is $400 for now but goes up another $100 soon.

[thenightwatch]

I know you want solo strings but I have to chime in and say Cinematic Strings 2 will blow your mind. I spent several months making my decision and I was looking at the same libraries as you. LASS is my favorite if you want the whole enchalada and want to stay in Kontakt (which I did). I did not want to get involved with the Play engine for several reasons (scripting being the biggest).

I decided to go with Cinematic Strings 2 as my ensemble and LASS FC as my solo strings. I do not need Divisi at this point and the sound, GUI and price of CS2 just made it impossible to pass up.

CS2 is a resource heavy library (multi mics,etc), but the sound is worth it. To my ears the violins sound as real as I've heard, and the basses are HUGE!!

To answer your question directly, I would stay in Kontakt. That makes LASS your choice in my opinion. I actually like the sound of EWHS but EHQLSO is older and I don't think it sounds as good as LASS.