DP8 announced: 64 bits and available for Windows!

[bayswater]

I forget who it was who made the apt observation on this forum -
"beware the person with a single-digit post number"..

Or something like that.

?? Everyone had up to nine of them.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

There was one guy a while back with about 350+ posts who ended up using only pirated copies of DP. It was kind of obvious but he couched everything so well that he was able to remain "hidden" for a while. Then one day... BOOM... he imploded when the idea of referring to page numbers in the manual got his knickers in a knot.

Post counts in and of themselves are meaningless, IMO. Some members here with relatively low post counts are really top notch practitioners while a few with very high post counts are total clowns... uh oh. Hope I didn't blow my cover just then.

[Michael Canavan]

I don't see any need whatsoever for VST in the Mac version of DP.

Cross platform compatibility. AU simply doesn't do it. VST is the de facto standard on Windows, only Pro Tools doesn't use it.

But it's important to note that to expect MOTU to wholesale support VST would be like asking Steinberg to support MAS in cooperation. Every developer wants their format to be the standard--- which is why we have so many to start with.

There is an inherent necessity for MOTU to support OSX, which more directly involves Core Audio and Audio Units. To expect them to support VST as well would be (to them) treason-- if you think about it.

MOTU shouldn't be expected to kiss up to Steinberg's standards, nor vice versa.. Developers fairly fully orphaned MAS-- so what's in it for MOTU should they appease those eager for VST?

Well that would make sense eleven years ago when MOTU had MAS as a plug in format, DX was the in house Windows plug in format, Pro Tools had RTAS and VST was the upstart "open' format introduced by Steinberg. The thing is VST has come a long way, in the beginning it was much harder for hosts to implement it etc. but all that's changed. VST is now the only standard on Windows really, that and RTAS.
I spent a lot of time chatting about the AU thing with developers online at OSXAudio around the time of the introduction. There was a huge division, some were really for it because Apple did a great job of documenting how to make an AU etc. and some were really against it, saying that what plug in makers really didn't need is another format to have to code to. At that point DX was universally being dismissed on Windows, so on the Windows side it was RTAS and VST, on Mac it was RTAS, VST and AU. AU is now the only non cross platform plug in format that developers have to code for.
Don't get me wrong, I use AU, even in Live, I hardly ever use VST. I think the main reason it was IMO a more stable format for years was because it was prior to cocoa much harder to port a plug in from Windows and leave graphics code in that makes it unstable on Macs. At this point I believe developers of any merit have realized that the UI code has to be completely different etc.

What this means to us really is that Steinberg might be at the head of VST but it's not anything to fear. It's already been stated that MOTU are using VST on the Windows version so the treachery has happened, and Apple introduced a VST plug in folder in the Audio directory alongside the RTAS and MAS one so they have committed treason against themselves.

[Prime Mover]

Wait a minute, isn't VST/Mac different than VST/Windows? I don't think they're cross platform. I see multiple versions for download all the time. In fact, VST Mac gets very little support, because Cubase for Mac is practically unused.

[Frodo]

Well that would make sense eleven years ago when MOTU had MAS as a plug in format, DX was the in house Windows plug in format, Pro Tools had RTAS and VST was the upstart "open' format introduced by Steinberg.

Indeed. 11 years ago, we had VST Wrapper which not only made a lot of sense but was essential. Even back then, MOTU opted to let a third party do the VST honors rather than to incorporate VST natively in DP's own compatibility features.

I may be getting ahead of myself (and others), but who's to say that VST/VST3 won't become native on some update now that DP-as-cross-platform is a reality?

It also raises a whole new series of prognostications about where DP8 will go--- now that we know that DP8 is more than just an update to DP7.

What are folks doing on Windows that can't be done on Mac? How can those functions be translated to back to the Mac for OSX users? Conversely, what is the nature of what we've enjoyed in OSX that Windows users will now enjoy? What will DP do in Windows that it can/can't do in OSX? Those are not complaints, but just a series of questions.

The thing is VST has come a long way, in the beginning it was much harder for hosts to implement it etc. but all that's changed. VST is now the only standard on Windows really, that and RTAS.

Totally no argument there. What I like about it is that it IS a true game changer in a lot of ways. DP with VST/RTAS on boot in Windows. Forget 11 years ago for a moment. Had anyone suggested that possible reality just a few DAYS ago, they'd have gotten badly bruised with criticism around here.

I spent a lot of time chatting about the AU thing with developers online at OSXAudio around the time of the introduction. There was a huge division, some were really for it because Apple did a great job of documenting how to make an AU etc. and some were really against it, saying that what plug in makers really didn't need is another format to have to code to. At that point DX was universally being dismissed on Windows, so on the Windows side it was RTAS and VST, on Mac it was RTAS, VST and AU. AU is now the only non cross platform plug in format that developers have to code for.

Another excellent observation, Michael. See, we've never had to deal with DP in cross-platform before. The sense of Apple-y/Mac-y uniqueness and all appertaining exclusivity are now *gone* because DP will now work with Windows. That means that the essential necessity for MAS and AU have changed. Where DP was once all-Mac, it was by default all-AU and all-MAS where the "native" issue has heretofore been concerned.

Eye-opening stuff, this. The game has changed more than I thought it would.

I'm headed out to look at PC systems!!

It's already been stated that MOTU are using VST on the Windows version so the treachery has happened, and Apple introduced a VST plug in folder in the Audio directory alongside the RTAS and MAS one so they have committed treason against themselves.

ROFLMAO!!

The treachery!!

The horror--- the horror.

The reason why DP8 is a major game changer is because lifelong DP users must now consider that "treason" (in metaphoric context) is....... okay!

[Michael Canavan]

Wait a minute, isn't VST/Mac different than VST/Windows? I don't think they're cross platform. I see multiple versions for download all the time. In fact, VST Mac gets very little support, because Cubase for Mac is practically unused.

To the coders different for sure. Basically VST, AU, RTAS are all wrappers around universal C++ usually code that does the real audio work. The thing is VST is made to be cross platform to me and you, so a VST and it's preset in OSX in a cross platform DAW like Cubase or Live will load properly in the Windows version. Cross platform doesn't equal exactly the same code, but exactly the same program or function in either OS.

So, again, in OSX I load up some cross platform DAW like Live with a VST and think that I would like to have Dicky Bob on his PC write a bass synth part for it. I can send him the project file with maybe any presets I made that are unique and he can load it in Live for PC.

[bayswater]

Wait a minute, isn't VST/Mac different than VST/Windows? I don't think they're cross platform. I see multiple versions for download all the time. In fact, VST Mac gets very little support, because Cubase for Mac is practically unused.

VST plugins are essentially the same, but compiled for their respective platforms, as is Cubase, and as DP will be. That's to be expected. There are no Mac applications that run on Windows other than the odd script. And you'd be surprised how many people use Cubase on a Mac.

[wheever]

All I want is for the crowded sound of the digital mix bus to be addressed, all the rest is a bonus.

Yes, I have no idea what you mean, can you explain?

Cheers

Stephen

I think I know what he means. I've found that when you drive DP's busses moderately hard, the sound gets really thick and grainy in the midrange, especially low mids.

I was working on a big mix about a year ago, and I couldn't figure out why it sounded so crappy. After messing about, checking all the plugins and whatnot, I noticed that many busses were pushing into the yellow or even hitting clip. So I created master faders for every single buss and grouped them together, pulling the whole mix down to like -15. Suddenly it sounded clear and spacious. I posted about this at the time, but I think y'all just thought I was nuts...which is not to say I'm not.

[David Polich]

Sorry - I really don't get this concern about VST on the Mac platform - at all.

What is the deal? I still haven't seen one person post about any VST-only
plug-in that is worth a shite.

You want VST compatability = get Cubase 6. And prepare to deal with that
pile of junk.

C'mon guys...

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Sorry - I really don't get this concern about VST on the Mac platform - at all.

What is the deal? I still haven't seen one person post about any VST-only
plug-in that is worth a shite.

You want VST compatability = get Cubase 6. And prepare to deal with that
pile of junk.

C'mon guys...

Oh man, I just love it when you talk dirty... hee hee , he said Cubase!

[KEVORKIAN]

Sorry - I really don't get this concern about VST on the Mac platform - at all.

What is the deal? I still haven't seen one person post about any VST-only
plug-in that is worth a shite.

You want VST compatability = get Cubase 6. And prepare to deal with that
pile of junk.

C'mon guys...

For me it's not about supporting VST-only plugins, it's about the AU spec being incomplete in regards to passing MIDI info back to the DAW.

There are workarounds but these are features that work well on VST that AU does not appear ready to support.

I also enjoy having the option to call up a VST version when there are bugs.

Personally, I hope that MOTU implements it on the Mac side as well.

[monkey man]

I forget who it was who made the apt observation on this forum -
"beware the person with a single-digit post number"..
Or something like that.

I thought it was, "Beware the person who's digit resembles a number of fence posts."

No thoughts on my theory of the "squeezed" mix bus, anyone?

[David Polich]

Sorry - I really don't get this concern about VST on the Mac platform - at all.

What is the deal? I still haven't seen one person post about any VST-only
plug-in that is worth a shite.

You want VST compatability = get Cubase 6. And prepare to deal with that
pile of junk.

C'mon guys...

For me it's not about supporting VST-only plugins, it's about the AU spec being incomplete in regards to passing MIDI info back to the DAW.

There are workarounds but these are features that work well on VST that AU does not appear ready to support.

I also enjoy having the option to call up a VST version when there are bugs.

Could you explain what you mean by the AU spec being incomplete or VST features that AU doesn't support?

I've never encountered any problems with MIDI in AU plug-ins or VI's.

[spitfire31]

Could you explain what you mean by the AU spec being incomplete or VST features that AU doesn't support?

I've never encountered any problems with MIDI in AU plug-ins or VI's.

I agree with Kevorkian. The main problem is that an AU (for example an arpeggiator or a drum machine sending MIDI) can't pass processed MIDI to, say, another track. A VST can, and I use Plogue Bidule hosting in those cases.

[Michael Canavan]

Sorry - I really don't get this concern about VST on the Mac platform - at all.

What is the deal? I still haven't seen one person post about any VST-only
plug-in that is worth a shite.

You want VST compatability = get Cubase 6. And prepare to deal with that
pile of junk.

C'mon guys...

Cross platform compatibility.
Seriously this isn't hard to figure out at all. VSTs in DAWs on OSX load on DAWs on PCs inside a song you are working on, including the preset. You open up a song with AU's in it and those instruments will be blank or cause the song not to load.

You might not care about that, but when we get the inevitable at least 25% increase in DP users who are using PCs the lack of ability to work on a project cross platform without printing the whole thing to audio will be a big deal to many. Live loads both AU and VST plug ins, it's not an unknown possibility.