Seeking recommendations for books on Midi-Orchestration

Frodo · Post by **Frodo** » Wed Jan 11, 2012 2:30 pm

Maybe "insanity" needs a different name.

How does "sanity" work?

zuul-studios · Post by **zuul-studios** » Wed Jan 11, 2012 2:40 pm

Frodo wrote:Maybe "insanity" needs a different name.

How does "sanity" work?

It seems that both words can have the same meaning. It just all depends on who you ask (and when you ask them) when seeking the meaning. So, it seems that either name can work just fine!

Just fine. . .

(I'm hearing 4'33" orchestrated for tuba and and tambourine. It's a sweet combination of instruments for this piece.)

Frodo · Post by **Frodo** » Wed Jan 11, 2012 2:53 pm

Okay-- cool.

So we're all "in sanity"!

kgdrum · Post by **kgdrum** » Thu Jan 12, 2012 12:40 pm

1st off : I really have no problem referring to moi as crazy!
Frodo- I was looking for Husa on Amazon and most of the recordings are either Orch. performers I'm not familiar with or College ensembles,
are there any particular performances you recommend?
strangely : Husa lived in Ithaca,so did I
( actually around the same time! ) I think I have heard 1 of his pieces previously but I haven't listened to enough of his work to actually know who he is.
Wise Hobbit recommendations always appreciated

KG

MIDI Life Crisis · Post by **MIDI Life Crisis** » Thu Jan 12, 2012 1:18 pm

kgdrum wrote: Wise Hobbit recommendations always appreciated

Just wait!

Frodo · Post by **Frodo** » Thu Jan 12, 2012 1:53 pm

kgdrum wrote:1st off : I really have no problem referring to moi as crazy!
Frodo- I was looking for Husa on Amazon and most of the recordings are either Orch. performers I'm not familiar with or College ensembles,
are there any particular performances you recommend?

This one ain't bad at all:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hG6HHExLDzY" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Louisville Orchestra (of all orchestras) kept itself on the map by doing ultra modern premieres and recordings.

I would avoid the wind ensemble versions for starters. They're good-- but the orchestral version is the cat's meow, imho meow.

MIDI Life Crisis wrote:
Just wait!

Oh, I'm just getting started.

Berio, anyone? Nono?

And how crazy was I when seeing "2001: A Space Oddity" ? That got me into Ligeti for the first time- who turned out to be my favorite 20th century composer along side Messien.

It really messed with me because I still had all those Beatle albums to contend with.

MIDI Life Crisis · Post by **MIDI Life Crisis** » Thu Jan 12, 2012 2:00 pm

Are you Messien wiff me?

Frodo · Post by **Frodo** » Thu Jan 12, 2012 2:05 pm

MIDI Life Crisis wrote:Are you Messien wiff me?

Erm-herm.

ootini · Post by **ootini** » Fri Jan 13, 2012 4:03 am

Hey hope you don't mind me adding to this but one book I found very useful was "The Principles of Orchestration" by Nicholai Rimsky Korsokov. It's very interesting.

Also one more thing that I learned after scratching my head for a while was when it comes to reverb, don't give everything different reverb settings, it sounds unnatural, when you listen to an orchestra, they are all in the same room. Giving the brass a very short hall setting while applying a long plate to the strings, just sounds weird and unnatural. I now just bang a single decent reverb over the whole lot.

Just my £0.02

leigh · Post by **leigh** » Fri Jan 13, 2012 7:51 am

MIDI Life Crisis wrote:Are you Messien wiff me?

Tweet, tweet!

leigh · Post by **leigh** » Fri Jan 13, 2012 8:24 am

Frodo wrote:
And how crazy was I when seeing "2001: A Space Oddity" ? That got me into Ligeti for the first time- who turned out to be my favorite 20th century composer along side Messien.

It really messed with me because I still had all those Beatle albums to contend with.

I'm with you on both Messiaen and Ligeti!

Interesting timing on this thread because yesterday I started a piece based on Messiaen's idea of non-retrogradeable rhythms! Should be fun!

Maybe I won't have to do much:

The Hamburg Symphony will be doing Messiaen's "Des Canyons aux Étoiles" here at the end of the month so I'm listenting a lot and re-reading "The Technique Of My Musical Language" and some Messiaen biographies.

**Leigh

Frodo · Post by **Frodo** » Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:19 pm

ootini wrote:Hey hope you don't mind me adding to this but one book I found very useful was "The Principles of Orchestration" by Nicholai Rimsky Korsokov. It's very interesting.

Also one more thing that I learned after scratching my head for a while was when it comes to reverb, don't give everything different reverb settings, it sounds unnatural, when you listen to an orchestra, they are all in the same room. Giving the brass a very short hall setting while applying a long plate to the strings, just sounds weird and unnatural. I now just bang a single decent reverb over the whole lot.

Just my £0.02

No problem with another vote for RK! We got into that on page 2. RK is amazing and a lifetime study. The problem is that we also love Ravel and Mahler and Stravinsky and other great symphonists, but the RK book only talks about RK's own works. Once again-- to become as great an orchestrator as RK would itself be a lifelong study. That's why his book remains important.

As for the reverb thing, I think we touched upon that as well. If not here, then we've talked about it in several other threads.

In a nutshell, the idea of sub-mixing winds as a group, brass as a group, percussion as a group and strings as a group with a reverb setting on each that is dialed into the requisite pre-delays with the reverb tails muted is one clever approach. Putting a sum of those groups in the mix (master fader?) that uses the same reverb but only handles the reverb tail with no pre-delay keeps it all in the family.

There are other approaches, of course, and nothing is invalid as long as it works.

Other books on MIDI orchestration:

Acoustic and MIDI Orchestration for the Contemporary Composer (Also in Kindle format)

Computer Orchestration: Tips and Tricks

I must also include "On the Track: A Guide to Contemporary Film Scoring" by Fred Karlin and Rayburn Wright. It's not a quick read by any means. 560 pages-- small type. Looks-feels-weighs like an old phone book. But, it is an amazing collection of essays of many, many great film composers.

I must also include "Study of Orchestration" by Samuel Adler. This book has been my personal #1 reference when all others have failed. It's one thing to sort out instrumental doublings, etc., but Adler reminds me that an oboe trill on middle-C and the semi-tone above it is not advised. And who considers double- or triple- stops on various stringed instruments? What's possible and what's not possible? Understanding the capabilities and limitations of every instrument in the orchestra is info as good as gold for any orchestrator.

mjmoody · Post by **mjmoody** » Fri Jan 13, 2012 4:17 pm

The RK thing is free and on line. That's nice! It is also nice to hear the examples whenever you want! I think the principles he presents are mainly valid - but it is kind of annoying to have only his examples!

One of my favorite life-changing music books was Russell Garcia's "The Professional Composer-Arranger." It was written in the 50's so it has nothing to do with mockups, but the compositional ideas are great! I especially liked his ideas of writing using a "rhythmic curve." No other single book has helped me more.

In general I usually have Stravinsky's three ballet scores near-by when I write. To me, the RK site, or any other technique book could be a good place to start, but the main thing is to listen to and study scores. When you like something, figure out what they did and use it. Wasn't it Stravinsky who said, "Good composers borrow, great composers steal!"

John

ootini · Post by **ootini** » Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:01 am

There's a few simple guides on the Sound on Sound website too, mainly about making orchestral samples a little more realistic, as opposed to how to compose and arrange.

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/apr00/a ... amples.htm

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/dec99/a ... estral.htm

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/mar99/a ... hestra.htm

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/1995_ar ... tips2.html This one is specific to the Emu Proteus, but still relatively interesting.

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/mar08/a ... ahurry.htm

Hope this isn't all too basic for the topic of discussion, but I found it to be a useful bunch of tips and tricks.

zuul-studios · Post by **zuul-studios** » Mon Jan 16, 2012 6:52 am

Thank you, all, very much for taking the time in recommending books and sharing links on this subject. There's been a whole lot of useful information shared!

It seems as if one has to have a degree in sound engineering in order to achieve a more realistic sound of a recorded orchestra. This is in addition to studying even basic orchestration (a subject that was not offered when I went to music college 30+ years ago). Lots to learn, lots to learn! Oh well. It's obvious that I won't be learning all of this stuff over night! LOL!

But. . . your thoughtful input is graciously and sincerely appreciated. (There's a WEALTH of knowledge found on this bulletin board!

)

Cheers. . .

Ted

Edited to add: It seems that SoundonSound (SOS) also holds a wealth of information, especially with regards to sound engineer and recording. Cool. . . .

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