Waves L3-16 Multimaximizer. Where are the 16 bands? Really.

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Shooshie
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Waves L3-16 Multimaximizer. Where are the 16 bands? Really.

Post by Shooshie »

There are some great deals out there, and one of them MAY be the Waves L3-16 MultiMaximizer, which you can get for $250 right now, a substantial savings (about $500 off normal price) At this price I start becoming interested, and that presents a problem: before I would buy this thing, I've got to know how it works, and whether it would benefit me.
First of all, I own the L3 MultiMaximizer, and I know two basic things about it:
1) It's an amazing processor which I use on nearly everything that needs limiting.
2) It's very counter-intuitive to learn to use. Difficult to figure out, hard to wrap your head around how it works.

The key to #2 above is that the higher you set the "priority" for a given band, the less limiting it performs on that band. The priority, then, is for the original unattenuated sound. Lower the priority and it begins attenuating the sound more. Compared to other Waves processors, like the C4, C6, or Linear Phase Multiband, one would expect the controls to work a little differently, but once one grasps this fundamental difference, one can start coaxing wonderful sounds out of this brick-wall multi-band limiter.

Now, for the L3-16:
The normal L3 MultiMaximizer has 5 bands of limiting. The L3-16 claims to have 16 bands. But anyone who has looked at the pictures knows that you only see 6 bands on the parametric graph.

Image

Until now I always assumed those other bands were accessible by some sort of paged system, where by you see only some of them at a time, ostensibly to keep the interface clean. So, I went off in search of reviews to tell me how that works. Finding none, I did come across this demo on YouTube:

Waves L3-16 MultiMaximizer demoed by "Tim at Waves."

So, what he tells us is that 10 of those 16 bands of "independent limiting" are closed up somewhere inside the system, because if they gave you access to all of them, you might get some comb filtering. So, they didn't give the user access to those bands. That seems wrong to me on multiple levels:
  • • First, it's wrong because they're calling a 6-band limiter a 16 band limiter.
    • Secondly, they're assuming their users will do it wrong.
    • Third, they do not explain this anywhere on the web except in this impromptu video.
    • Fourth, I've looked high and low for reviews of this thing, and NOBODY seems to understand it. All I read are the same marketing soundbites that Waves writes in their advertising. So-called reviews just repeat those same lines, and nobody ever seems to address the fact that after spending all that money they got ripped off by Waves, who delivered a 6-band limiter while calling it a 16 band limiter.
    • Fifth, there is almost zero 3rd party information out there about this thing.
    • Sixth, aren't 1 - 5 enough?
So, I appeal to the users of this forum who might be using the L3-16 MultiMaximizer. Our members tend to be a lot smarter than those at other forums where the first two posts are: 1. It's great, and 2. It sucks, and the rest of the threads consist of personal insults to each other's stupidity, gullibility, questionable mother's morality, and other such devolution. So, if anyone here can tell me how the L3-16 sounds, compared to the L3 Multimaximizer, I would appreciate it. If you can further explain where one finds those missing 10 bands, I'd like to know that, too.

Maybe the info is out there, but I have not seen it. Considering how revolutionary the L3 Multimaximizer is, I would expect this to be very important information, as the L3-16 would seem to be a radical improvement on an already radical plugin.

Any takers?

Shooshie
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Re: Waves L3-16 Multimaximizer. Where are the 16 bands? Real

Post by Shooshie »

By the way, I'm probably not even going to get the L3-16 Multimaximizer. The regular L3 Multimaximizer does what I need for now.

But I want to give everyone a heads up about another Waves processor which, if you haven't ever used it or its predecessors, will blow your mind if audio shaping is your forte. They have come out with a C6 processor. It's basically the C4, but with two extra (floating) bands of processing and it does side-chaining on a per-band basis. I have not used it yet; I just bought it after posting this thread, and I've only now gotten the iLok updated with the license and all that. But I anticipate this being one of my favorite plugins, as the C4 was and the Linear Phase Multiband is. (the latter is basically an advanced C4 with 5 bands.)

Waves: C6 multiband processor
Image

I'm curious how they handle side-chaining in this. Guess I'll soon find out.

During this sale, this plugin is $99. (normally $250)

Shooshie
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Re: Waves L3-16 Multimaximizer. Where are the 16 bands? Real

Post by Shooshie »

And one more thing...
I don't know how long they've been doing this, but Waves has capped the WUP fees at $200 per account. The only caveat is that you must claim that you only use the plugins on one machine at a time. If you have overlapping bundles that enable you to use the same plugins on more than one machine at the same time, and if you DO use them on more than one machine simultaneously, then you'd have to pay the WUP price for both bundles.

But if you only use them on one machine at a time, then your entire WUP price will be $200 maximum. You don't have to buy it every year; just when you need it to upgrade or get tech support. It's still $200. That's a big relief for me, because even the last time I renewed it (last June), WUP cost me much more than $200.

Read about it on the Waves page here.

I think public pressure has finally gotten to Waves. Couldn't have happened to a greedier company! (but hey… they make some great plugins)

Shooshie
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Re: Waves L3-16 Multimaximizer. Where are the 16 bands? Real

Post by jlaudon »

Interesting questions. I've always wondered what happened to those 10 bands 8) .

With all the great alternatives out there for limiting these days (FG-X, Fabfilter, Brainworx, etc), I have another question as well. Is a multiband limiter really needed if there is also a multi band compressor in the signal chain (sometimes I would boost a certain eq frequency in an EQ, and compress that in the multiband compressor, which is kind of like limiting)?

I do my best to not buy Waves if at all possible... (strange statement I know). It's the sales that still get me.
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Re: Waves L3-16 Multimaximizer. Where are the 16 bands? Real

Post by jloeb »

Shoosh, as you know, multiband processing of any type (even equalizers) introduces potential phase issues: manipulation of one portion of the frequency spectrum independently of the others can cause changes in clarity and imaging due to relative phase shifting.

Linear-phase processing is an attempt to ameliorate this problem. Optimal LPP places certain restrictions on the mobility of crossover points and relative gain changes of adjacent bands. It seems certain to me that the hidden status of some of the bands is due to the need to accommodate those restrictions, requiring calculations by the plug so as to deploy the hidden bands in a way that limits changes to the coherence of the processed signal. In other words, there are certain fixed relationships of the hidden bands that are determined by how you set the available bands.

My opinion from working with the L3-16, as well as the sense of it that I've heard from others who have worked with it, is that this plug was an "it goes to eleven!!!" overkill moment for Waves, the application of a more-must-be-better instinct to what turned out to have been a processor design with inherent limitations.

The L3-16 will punch more holes in your sonic image the harder it works. Any multiband processor does, and this one, with even more bands, therefore does so even more. If you are making music in which coherence of the image is something that is there to be messed with anyway, which describes many of the contemporary tech-forward genres, then that's not a huge issue, and a couple dB of additional gain is likely to be worth the tradeoff. If on the other hand you're doing classical, or any sort of representation of a traditional soundstage where rock-steady detail perception of the space is crucial, it could very well be a significant issue, and in such cases the original L3 is likely to be more than enough anyhow.

So depending on what kinds of projects you're doing, I'd definitely consider skipping the L3-16. This is one plug you absolutely need to demo in a context relevant to your work before pulling the trigger.
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Re: Waves L3-16 Multimaximizer. Where are the 16 bands? Real

Post by Shooshie »

Thanks, and you've described pretty much exactly what I thought. Nevertheless, if it takes 10 hidden bands to do 6 user-adjustable bands with accuracy, they really should call it a 6 band limiter. When someone tells me there are 4, 6, 8, 10, or 16 bands, I assume that means those are MINE to work with, not the background processing overhead bands.

By all means, the regular L3 Multimaximizer, more specifically the L3-LL Multimaximizer, is all that I need. It has 5 bands, and they all do something I can see and hear.

jlaudon, regarding multi-band processors and multiband limiters, I think they are different beasts, and can work together in harmony. There are some tricks you can do with the C4, C6, and Linear Phase Multiband processors that the L3 Multimaximizer just can't do, and vice versa. The displays and user interfaces look similar, but they actually represent different things. All the above are absolutely incredible processors, for which there is no equal from the analog or vintage worlds.

Shooshie
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Re: Waves L3-16 Multimaximizer. Where are the 16 bands? Real

Post by stephentayler »

Shooshie, you got me going and went and bought C6...... I think the side-chain thing alone will be extremely useful!

I am already a huge L3-LL and C4 fan. I got my first copy of C4 in 2000..... it has always been my go-to solution for rampant stand-up bass..... just fixed a rather wild and unpredictable recording of Danny Thompson........

Thanks

Stephen
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Re: Waves L3-16 Multimaximizer. Where are the 16 bands? Real

Post by Shooshie »

stephentayler wrote:Shooshie, you got me going and went and bought C6...... I think the side-chain thing alone will be extremely useful!

I am already a huge L3-LL and C4 fan. I got my first copy of C4 in 2000..... it has always been my go-to solution for rampant stand-up bass..... just fixed a rather wild and unpredictable recording of Danny Thompson........

Thanks

Stephen

Cool, Stephen! Say, 2000 was when I first got the C4, too. This whole plugin thing seemed still new then, and the things I was able to accomplish with the C4 would boggle the minds of my fellow audio engineers in Las Vegas at the time. One of the coolest things I did was to create an expander that worked to slow down the decay of piano notes at higher velocities. When there is a lot of sound from the orchestra, you don't hear the decay of the higher piano notes, so they get reduced to percussive bells. Old-time composers compensated for this by doubling or quadrupling octaves, or adding entire chords (Rachmaninoff, for example). But we wanted less of the xylophone-like attack and more sustain -- which is like having your cake and eating it, too -- and the C4 enabled me to make that happen. It actually sounded very natural. The trick is finding that sweet spot in the threshold, and of course reversing the range.

Regarding the C6, one of the best features about it is that the outer two bands float to anywhere, and can co-occupy other bands. So, once you've gotten your basic C4 setup down, you can add the two floating bands in, say, a spike with sharp Q to compensate for hum, pops, or to add "air," or whatever. I often wished for that when using the C4, but those bands could not cross each other or even function as spikes. Now we can do that without having to bring in an EQ on top of it.

Maybe you can explain to me how the sidechaining works in this configuration. The only way I've ever used sidechaining was to bring in an audio channel as the sidechain and use it to duck or otherwise enhance the main channels. In the C6 there is no place that I can find to bring in an external source, yet the buttons clearly can be set to "external." External what? I've seen other sidechain plugins that were similar, and I never figured those out, either. I'm accustomed to MOTU's Dynamics plugin, where the sidechain button actually opens a menu to select a bus for sidechain input. So, in this C6, where is the external source? The manual didn't exactly open my eyes, either. Suppose it's a L/R thing, where L is the sidechain and R is the main track? Or am I just overlooking something very obvious?

Shooshie
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Re: Waves L3-16 Multimaximizer. Where are the 16 bands? Real

Post by Armageddon »

Shoosh, if you already have it as part of a Waves' package, I just recommend using the L3-LL Multimaximizer instead. Less CPU-intensive and will give you the same results, feels a bit more analog, too. I generally avoid multiband compression or limiting in mastering -- I feel like the line between their job and the mastering EQ's job gets very blurry, at that point -- but I've been pleasantly surprised with L3-LL Multimaximizer.
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Re: Waves L3-16 Multimaximizer. Where are the 16 bands? Real

Post by stephentayler »

Shooshie wrote: I'm accustomed to MOTU's Dynamics plugin, where the sidechain button actually opens a menu to select a bus for sidechain input. So, in this C6, where is the external source? The manual didn't exactly open my eyes, either. Suppose it's a L/R thing, where L is the sidechain and R is the main track? Or am I just overlooking something very obvious?

Shooshie
I couldn't find where to select the external input when I first opened C6 in DP.... searched everywhere....

I went off and tried it in ProTools, and there was a clear little box for selecting the external key input.

Went back to DP, and immediately found the external input menu next to the snapshot menu... strange I couldn't find it the first time..... I think there was a graphical glitch of some sort first time I opened it......

Having looked in the pdf again, they don't explain this or even show us the section above the display.... maybe because it is laid out differently in the AU and RTAS versions.

Anyway, it seems very powerful to have a side-chain attached to any or some of the bands in this..... shall be experimenting soon.

Cheers

Stephen
Stephen W Tayler: Sound Artist
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http://ostinatomusic.com
http://stephentayler.com

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Re: Waves L3-16 Multimaximizer. Where are the 16 bands? Real

Post by Shooshie »

stephentayler wrote:I couldn't find where to select the external input when I first opened C6 in DP.... searched everywhere....

I went off and tried it in ProTools, and there was a clear little box for selecting the external key input.

Went back to DP, and immediately found the external input menu next to the snapshot menu... strange I couldn't find it the first time..... I think there was a graphical glitch of some sort first time I opened it......

Having looked in the pdf again, they don't explain this or even show us the section above the display.... maybe because it is laid out differently in the AU and RTAS versions.

Anyway, it seems very powerful to have a side-chain attached to any or some of the bands in this..... shall be experimenting soon.

Cheers

Stephen
YES! Found it! I can't say for sure that it wasn't there before, but I looked and looked and looked. Now that you told me where it was, it's as big as day. Geez! How did I miss that?

I've already used it on several mixes. OMG! It's just magic. Mix magic. This is without exception my favorite plugin ever. Cutting in and out the bypass, I can't believe what I was getting before, and how much closer this has changed things toward what I've been struggling to achieve, but failing.

Shooshie
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Re: Waves L3-16 Multimaximizer. Where are the 16 bands? Real

Post by bgraven001 »

L3-16 sounds much better than L3Multi.
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Re: Waves L3-16 Multimaximizer. Where are the 16 bands? Real

Post by cbergm7210 »

bgraven001 wrote:L3-16 sounds much better than L3Multi.
Please explain. :)
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Re: Waves L3-16 Multimaximizer. Where are the 16 bands? Real

Post by Prime Mover »

Just purchased the C6, L3 and Hi-EQ. I downloaded a time demo, hoping to get to know them during my holiday vacation, unfortunately, things got busy and I used up all my demo time. Price was just too good to let pass by. I may contact you at some point for guidence, Shoosh.
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Re: Waves L3-16 Multimaximizer. Where are the 16 bands? Real

Post by Prime Mover »

WOW! I just read the L3 manual, one of the most FASCINATING reads on mastering and sample bitrate conversion I've ever read!

http://www.waves.com/manuals/plugins/L3.pdf

It basically goes into a lot of the same things about dithering, normalization and sample conversion that Bob Katz does, but honestly, whoever wrote this explained it a lot more cleanly than Katz does. I was kinda befuddled by some of the explanations in Mastering Audio, this clears things up.
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