Outboard mixing experiment- thoughts?

Dark Goob · Post by **Dark Goob** » Wed Oct 12, 2011 1:15 pm

So I have been having trouble getting mixes I'm happy with in DP7. I am a noob at this. I'll make a mix on my M-Audio $350-level monitors (Bx8a's), bounce in MOTU with LAME engine at 256kbps CBR MP3 -- but once I get it to my iPod, it sounds like trash with no bass on the earbuds. I know earbuds suck but commercial tracks sound fine. Shellac's bass can be heard just fine on white earbuds! (Albini's my hero.)

So I upgraded to mic the drums with AKG Perception 200 plus three SM-57's, a Beta 58a, and one of those old 1/4"-jack type Shure mics that looks like an SM-57 (gonna replace that soon). I was running the mics directly in thru MOTU 828 and 002 Rack (the 002 being routed into 828 via ADAT), but I didn't feel like it sounded that great. My mixes would always sound harsh.

So I thought maybe I should try analog summing. I figured I should find a cheap, used British-made mixer.

So I then bought a used Studiomaster STAR system compact analog mixing console (1993-era, made in UK; 8:4:2 with similar electronics to a P7 or Mixdown Classic). It has 8 mono channels with xlr in, 1/4" in, a balanced 1/4" direct out, a 1/4" send-return, 3-band EQ, and a 100mm fader.

Each of the 8 momo channels also has a "swap" mode where it will then take input from a secondary "tape" input (harkening back to the ADAT days). That way, you don't have to repatch during mixdown -- you just have your 8 inputs go right back out to the same channels on the matching outputs, so when you are tracking you can just punch out and swap whatever channels you aren't recording. Then when summing you just use swap for all eight.

STAR also has a stereo bus with eight sets of stereo inputs. Four of these have aux sends, two-band EQ, and stereo send/return.

So at mixdown, I have the 6 drum mics and the bass guitar going back out to the same analog mixer channels that they were recorded through. Plus I use three stereo inputs for VI, keys, and a double of the vocal track that will have effects put on.

All these tracks get mixed down to the L/R bus that first goes thru the STAR's sweepable parametric EQ and then goes thru its stereo compressor. Then it goes out through the -10db "monitor" output, which goes back into the MOTU to be recorded. Do you think that it's best to compress it this way, or should I use plug-ins? I am too noobish to know if STAR's analog compressor and EQs are worth using.

BTW I also have the FX vocals go back out through the Aux 1/2 sends to be recorded seperately during mixdown. That way if I liked the FX take but not the mix, I can resend the good FX take without having to re-perform it by hand (by perform, I mean that I use a Kaos Pad to modulate the vocal effects).

Ultimately I felt my first attempt at mixing this way was very fun but... I just am not sure how much better it sounds. I do loathe working with automation, which I imagine is a must for recording a symphony, but is huge overkill for 8 to 12 tracks. Working with real faders is a must to me and I can't afford a digital interface with 100mm faders (the Midas F16 looks badass but alas it's >$2000).

What suggestions/thoughts/criticisms/tips do any of you have for me regarding this workflow? Is this Studiomaster STAR decent or should I spend $600 on something like a Soundcraft Spirit Studio 24:8? I do feel that STAR's features work great for me, but the overall sound quality is my biggest concern. I just don't feel confident to judge the sound quality on my own, nor do I know of any way to objectively test it using computer software test programs or measuring instruments etc.

Thanks for any tips.

-=DG=-

Dan Worley · Post by **Dan Worley** » Wed Oct 12, 2011 3:47 pm

You're going to find numerous plug-ins that will completely blow the Star's compressors and EQs away. Not that compressors and other plug-ins are the answer to every problem.

Sounds to me like you need to improve what's going into DP and that will improve what's coming out of it. And by that I mean improving the front end; it's not a knock on anyone's playing ability.

As far as mixing goes, for right now, I think you should forget about having an external mixer and concentrate on mixing in DP. You will learn it if you stick with it, and then later on you can move onto adding other devices to fit your workflow.

I think you need to work on the basics of mixing and not throw money at new equipment. That's never the answer until you've reached a limitation or a personal preference gained from experience, not on a whim or what someone else told you should do.

If you need a real fader, get an Alpha Track or something like that.

c-ya,

Dan Worley

Pappy725 · Post by **Pappy725** » Wed Oct 12, 2011 4:17 pm

Instead of running the mics directly into the 828, try running them into your mixer and the direct outs of the channels into the 828's analog inputs. That way you can boost the levels going in and get a better mix. I like to have a knob to turn on each input to set levels with, the analog line ins, you get what you get.

Pappy

Dark Goob · Post by **Dark Goob** » Wed Oct 12, 2011 6:13 pm

Yeah, Pappy, that was the main reason I got it: for the pre-amps. The fact that I could also sum with it did not impact my buying decision.

I had been running the bass directly into the 828, now it goes into the STAR and then 828 gets the direct out from there.

Do you think upgrading to 896 Mk III would improve the input quality substantially over 828 (original, "Mk I") for 44.1/24?

I also do not want to throw more hardware at the problem, since really it's the VI that I have the most trouble getting to sound good in the mix. I would love to see a sample of a DP recording project file of a live industrial band with drums, keys, VIs, guitars, and vocals, to see how they use the various types of plug-ins. My expertise is all in photography and programming, so knowing the right way to use the various plugs has been baffling to me. Thanks.

Pappy725 · Post by **Pappy725** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:34 am

They may be better preamps in the new 896, but if you're just doing 44.1/24, I don't think it will make that much difference. Work at getting the recording level up to -6 to -3, you'll be amazed how much better the tracks will sound. As far as the VI's go, there are others on this board that can give you better advice than I can. Still, keep trying to make it sound like you hear it in your head. It's a deep program and a pretty steep learning curve. But still easy to get a good sound out of.

Pappy

mikehalloran · Post by **mikehalloran** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 11:03 am

Hmmmm.... plenty of discussion about your front end - little of it germaine to your post, however.

Your 2 issues are your bounce down to mp3 and the way that you monitor. So let's address that.

Any data compression algorithm assigns priorities. Unfortunately, you have no way of knowing if this is the problem or not.

Your iPod can handle 44.1 16bit stereo .WAV files so try a couple of mixes that way - see if it makes a difference.

Likewise, play back some of those mp3s on your M-Audio speakers.

Now you will know if it is the transfer or your mixes that suck. Once you know that, you will know what needs fixing. Only then can you do something about it.

One suggestion - never bounce a multi-track to mp3. Bounce to .wav or .aiff. Check the sound. Now bounce that file to mp3.

Pappy725 · Post by **Pappy725** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 4:00 pm

mikehalloran wrote:One suggestion - never bounce a multi-track to mp3. Bounce to .wav or .aiff. Check the sound. Now bounce that file to mp3.

True that. I bounce to aiff and then drop into iTunes to burn discs with. Another thing is that automation is not that hard to get a handle on, turn it on and try mixing in DP's mixer. You can always go into the volume editing and clean it up or delete it if it's not what you were trying to get. Same with the plugins, try it, you might like it.

Pappy

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