MOTU tech support - does this bother anyone else?

[westla]

I must agree with Shooshie !!!!! I do not read him as being arogant ....

Okay, let's agree for the moment that he's not being arrogant and review the facts.

*BP tasks cause spikes in 4.6.
*BP tasks did not cause spikes in 4.52 and earlier.

W

Not to be difficult, but I don't agree.

I have no spikes in 4.6, and never did earlier, so this isn't happening to everyone.

And I think the MOTU Tech guy was more than patient with you. He answered your question, but you didn't like the answer, and kept asking it again, and again, and again. I know how frustrating it is when your setup isn't working, but honestly I think he was cool with you.

[jr213]

To quote Mugatu: "I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!!"

If the fact is that I shouldn't be experiencing spikes, let's address that.
If the fact is that BP no longer works as it should, let's address that.

Neither were addressed by Rob at MOTU. Can I make myself any clearer? What part of "my problem is not solved" is being misunderstood.

FACT: I have a faster machine w/ 4.6 that is having problems, whereas my slower machine w/ 4.52 didn't.

Am I missing something?

[Spikey Horse]

ok so if this isn't happening to everyone why did it happening to some of us?

Well... when I had the problem I had some sort of automatic beat analysis switched on in BP prefs (sorry I forget exact settings) and I got the clicks in audio when I was bouncing from BFD. I was using 'BFD all outs' which means I was recording 3 stereo and 14 mono audio tracks simultaneously. (mmmm I love BFD )

44.1
24 bit
BFD as a vsti (no other plug ins)
problem at all buffer settings up to 1024
DP 4.6
G5 dual 1.8 1GB OSX 10.3.9

CPU was hovering about 1/5 to 1/4 with very quick little spikes to 100% but not always triggering red clipping indicator.

So based on that I'd say it was just the sheer number of audiofiles being analysed in real time which caused clicks to occur. But that's just a guess ... any comments?

[jr213]

Here is the email I just sent to Rob @ MOTU. I will let you all know what comes of it.

Rob,

I would like to get to the bottom of this. Please allow me to recap:
- Slower computer + DP 4.52 = no CPU spikes during BP tasks + playback/recording audio
- Faster computer + DP 4.6 = CPU spikes during BP tasks + playback/recording audio
This leads me to one of two conclusions:
1. That something is wrong with my setup (spikes during BP tasks is not normal)
2. That BP no longer works as it should (bug introduced in 4.6)

If you are confident that it is not a bug, will you please help me determine what in my setup is causing the spikes?

[jcotner]

One thing that sort of jumps at at me.
A faster machine is a different machine and unless the hard drive was moved from one to the other the software COULD be different.
That's not a automatic comdenation of the CPU but it is a possible problem. When working through a problem tree all possible branches must be examined. This needs to be examined first, MOTU should not be expected to make sure the host CPU is right. Just a suggestion.

[dmshep]

I'm running a dual 1GHz G4 and never leave BP on. I get freeze-ups and crashes from Beat Detection. If I'm going to be using Pitch Automation, I let it run through it's analyzing before I start doing any other work. I just realized, though, that perhaps it's been due to the disk read/write buffer problems I've been dealing with. Perhaps at lower settings it's too much strain. Hmmm...

The frustrating thing for me is that Beat Detection occassionally turns itself on. I opened a session the other day and started working and the BP window popped up to show it was finding beats on my tracks. I looked at the settings in Preferences and all Beat Detection was turned off. Yet there it was analyzing away. I clicked the little x's to kill the processes and it didn't attempt to analyze them again.

This is after I trashed all the preferences in 4.52 and later updated to 4.6. I've only encountered one other person who had this problem so I'm assuming it's a set-up thing. At some point I'll try a completely fresh install of DP and see if that solves it.

[jr213]

One thing that sort of jumps at at me.
A faster machine is a different machine and unless the hard drive was moved from one to the other the software COULD be different.
That's not a automatic comdenation of the CPU but it is a possible problem. When working through a problem tree all possible branches must be examined. This needs to be examined first, MOTU should not be expected to make sure the host CPU is right. Just a suggestion.

Actually, MOTU should be expected to make sure the host CPU is right if they support it. In PC land, this is a valid argument, but not here. I agree that it is possible the G5 might be the problem. But if it is, MOTU should know about it.

For example, UAD-1 supports the Mac platform and PC. They also have a known issue with G5s that use the AMD PCI-X chipset. They are aware of it and let the users know it. And, they continue to work on the problem (and they have made incremental progress toward fixing it).

[Splinter]

Forget background processing. I get CPU spikes fairly regularly during playback with 30% CPU usage and BGP waiting to analyze. I'm using a dual 1.8 G5.

Time to tweak MOTU.

[Jeff]

What chaps my ass, is when you can't get a reply at all. I did have a problem like this, which seemed (after extensive headbanging and lost hours) to have been the result of me turning on or off a DA-38 connected to a 2408 mk2, while the 2408 was still turned on. OS 9, etc. No one knew how to solve my problem, no one knew what I did, I didn't know what I did that caused it. Reading all manuals eventually clued me in to me not following the prescribed order of operations that must have led to my problem.

Again, the way the system was designed. Not necessarily by intent, but the way it was DESCRIBED in the manual = how it's supposed to work smoothly.

I agree with the folks that think the MOTU guy was within reason to word his stuff that way. He did what he could. He might have been saying, in my words, "gee, we're trying to offer AutoTune for free with a more intuitive and flexible interface, but we haven't worked out the bugs yet to make it efficient." I suppose he could give you that. But that's quite an offering. And they probably don't know it's a bigger issue until more people have the same problem. What you are describing hasn't been echoed by anyone else responding yet, so I can dig your frustration. I had that "no out" sort of vibe with my issue above.

However:

may or may not be useful: I've been researching cpu upgrades to get what I can out of my old G4, got lots of useful responses, lots of info from people talking about dual processors, dual g5's. One of the things that kept cropping up was the finicky nature of certain dual g5's with DP 4.6 and some of the new "improvements." Seems the guy with the dual 1.8 has no issues like you describe. many others didn't with any of the dp "improvements," which proved for them to be exactly that. The others though...

I can't recall which g5's, or which threads, as I bombarded myself with info over way too long a sleep-deprived time, but search the site for dual processor stuff. Might be helpful. Sounds like similar symptoms to problems others have had.

[Aramis]

jr213....
I do not see in your messages a constructive way to troubleshoot your problem ....You give us sparse information about your setup ....
You push the problem to the guy and say now do something but you don't do anything on your side .....
That is the way I see it from here , I am sorry ....

Remember that when you start a post complaining about something , the orthers that give you their complains ......That do not solve your problem .....
I am certain we are a lot not having your problem and we also are a lot that had problems but found them ....
Could you be more meticulous in your approach to search the cause and not loosing your precious time in exchanging complains with others ....
The purpose of this place here is not to kill support but support ourself in the better ways we can ....

Aramis

[pcm]

Unbelieveable. Such arrogance. I don't know what they are thinking with this, it should be something we launch when WE want the feature to work. Enabling this by default is probably the most stupid idea I have ever heard. Motu are you listening? It is a bug, or an idea that doesn't work. Fix it, because the "feature" sucks.

I don't think he was being arrogant. He answered your questions, and he continued to talk with you. He told you the facts: the system was designed that way; it's not a bug. And he said they're working on making it more efficient. He did everything but tell you when it would be finished, and that's something he doesn't know. He admitted that things aren't ideal. But it's not something that can't be worked around. It's not like it brings DP to a grinding halt. (ok... a little tiny squeaking pause, maybe... )

Shooshie

I agree. I see no issue whatsoever with his responses.

The BG process has become a little more intense since Pitch Automation. It's especially noticable when you open an older project, and DP begins to re-analyze EVERY soundbite as soon as you open the project. The best solution is to let it finish before you do work on that project. Then is will have caught up and there should be no need to suffer through extensive BP.

I don't remember if you mentioned what machine you are running. All users should keep in mind that a real PT system cost well over $10k, and that DP will offer much of the same power for a fraction of the price. However, if you are running an older, slower machine, it will not run well at all. This is not MOTU's fault. If you want pro power and pro features, buy a new machine already. This issue with BG will be far worse on these machines. For users with older, slower machines, the "put up or shut up" axiom is well applicable (sorry), and we should stop blaming MOTU that these machines are having a hard time with 2005 cutting edge software.

No offense intended....

[dave pine]

i have a brand new g5, and still i have to wait for bgp to finish before i do anything.

[jr213]

jr213....
I do not see in your messages a constructive way to troubleshoot your problem ....You give us sparse information about your setup ....

I included this in the email i sent above, but didn't include it here to save space... sorry. Let me know if any other info would be helpful.

NEW setup:
DP 4.6
Dual 2.0GHz G5 w/ 2.5 GB RAM
828mkII
Plugins: Waves, Auto-Tune, Altiverb, HydraTone, ValveTone, VintageWarmer, UAD-1
VI: MachFive, MX4, iDrum

OLD setup:
DP 4.52
Dual 867MHz G4 w/ 1.25 GB RAM
828mkII
Plugins: all above plus more
VI: above (except for MX4) plus more

I don't think I'm being unreasonable.
I'm NOT the only one with this problem - others have already mentioned their issues with BP here.

Usually, you diagnose a problem before you start trying to fix it, or else how do you know what to fix.

MOTU Rob did not try to diagnose the problem. He said there is no problem. But obviously, there is (please see recap above).

[Rush909]

What bothers me about this thread is that MOTU seems to be going Logic's way... What I mean by that is that they are starting to put ALL their forcus on providing GREAT new features (like Pitch correction, DCPUM) and not working on making sure all these new things are not crippling what is an essentialy fantastic DAW.

When I jumped to logic briefly a couple of years ago, I found the program to have a wealth of tools/synths/flexability, but also some lingering bugs that were never addressed. I once asked on a forum if anyone could reproduce a certain SOLO bug I was having, they pretty much told me that it had been a bug since version 4 (I was on version 6!) and that I had to basically find some workaround for it...

Is that where DP is heading? great DAW, but broken by a bunch of SERIOUS bugs that will eventually make it unusable?

r.

[Aramis]

jr213....
I do not see in your messages a constructive way to troubleshoot your problem ....You give us sparse information about your setup ....

I included this in the email i sent above, but didn't include it here to save space... sorry. Let me know if any other info would be helpful.

NEW setup:
DP 4.6
Dual 2.0GHz G5 w/ 2.5 GB RAM
828mkII
Plugins: Waves, Auto-Tune, Altiverb, HydraTone, ValveTone, VintageWarmer, UAD-1
VI: MachFive, MX4, iDrum

OLD setup:
DP 4.52
Dual 867MHz G4 w/ 1.25 GB RAM
828mkII
Plugins: all above plus more
VI: above (except for MX4) plus more

I don't think I'm being unreasonable.
I'm NOT the only one with this problem - others have already mentioned their issues with BP here.

Usually, you diagnose a problem before you start trying to fix it, or else how do you know what to fix.

MOTU Rob did not try to diagnose the problem. He said there is no problem. But obviously, there is (please see recap above).

Troubleshoot means trying different things to grab infos that would let you diagnose the causes ......
Diagnose means you have done enough troubleshoot to determine something .....
Have you tried to narrow down to something specific ....
Like , do you always have cpu spikes ?
Can you do a simple record without cpu spikes ?
Can you start simple whitout the problem and add things until you may discover the cause .....?
I had spikes and found that Groove Agent 2 was the cause for exemple .

Aramis