Piano Clarity Seems To Diminish At ff

buzzsmith · Post by **buzzsmith** » Fri Jul 01, 2011 5:39 pm

Might be my ears but, if not, what could cause the piano to sound so pretty and clear if the player is playing mezzo and seem to not be as clear when he/she is bearing down?

Well miced (2 Shure large diaphragm condenser KSM 44s), no mic pre (PreSonus) overload and no indication of any redlining within DP. Waveforms look just fine.

Simple physics? More complex waveforms? More harmonics?

The instrument itself?...7'2" Yamaha Conservatory grand and tuned yesterday.

Hope that's enough preliminary info for the inquiry.

Thanks!

Buzzy

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mikehalloran · Post by **mikehalloran** » Fri Jul 01, 2011 9:46 pm

You don't say how far the mics are from the piano. My first thought is to increase the distance - fine tune it till you get the optimum blend of room and instrument.

If you are micing at some distance already - try raising or lowering your mics or moving in closer. There is a possibility of phase cancellation caused by the bottom of the soundboard off of a hard surface - even one under a carpet.

My Bösendorfer is only seven inches longer than that Yamaha. I put a thick rug on top of the carpet directly underneath the soundboard and it improved the sound on loud passages.

A third possibility is the bass notes may be adding some mud on loud passages. Usually, this can be tamed by any of the above methods but I have been known to stick another mic under the soundboard. Too much mud and I will blend a little in allowing some induced polarity reversal to clean up the bass a bit. On a piano with a weak bass, run the bottom mic out of polarity to increase the bottom end. One nice thing about DP is that you can record it straight and play with the polarity on post.

Cool tricks I learned long, long ago...

buzzsmith · Post by **buzzsmith** » Sat Jul 02, 2011 6:25 am

Thanks, Mike.

I'll post a photo later of the exact setup I used yesterday.

I'll also get my daughter to give a listen with her "young ears". I have tinnitus and I think a little ear distortion, as well, in the mid to high frequency ranges.

It is a live room, so it's quite possible that some reflections are to blame if blame, indeed, needs to be placed.

Buzzy

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David Polich · Post by **David Polich** » Wed Jul 20, 2011 8:21 am

The answer has to do with piano physics.

Piano strings hit very hard exhibit distortion and chaos. The inharmonicity
increases to the point where inharmonic overtones equal or surpass
the fundamental. The strings are vibrating to the degree that they actually
distort (like a guitar).

I learned this the hard way when doing a Yamaha Disklavier project. We were
asked to limit MIDI velocities to 90 because the piano distorts beyond that.
Most people play with velocities around 40 -75. It's difficult to
get the MIDI keyboard on a Disklavier to transmit a velocity higher than
95. You have to have hands like bricks to send a velocity of 100. If the
Disklavier receives a MIDI note at 127 velocity, it is seriously crazy chaotic.

buzzsmith · Post by **buzzsmith** » Wed Jul 20, 2011 6:36 pm

David Polich wrote:The answer has to do with piano physics.

Piano strings hit very hard exhibit distortion and chaos. The inharmonicity
increases to the point where inharmonic overtones equal or surpass
the fundamental. The strings are vibrating to the degree that they actually
distort (like a guitar).

Thanks. I remember reading somewhere once that striking a simple (or perhaps complex) chord on a piano generate about 10,000 sonic events in just a few seconds.

So, are you saying that no matter the quality of the instrument or the microphones that this is inherent to all pianos? Very loud chordal playing (especially in the higher register) will always distort to some degree?

Thanks, much...

Buzzy

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mikehalloran · Post by **mikehalloran** » Fri Jul 22, 2011 5:37 pm

buzzsmith wrote:
David Polich wrote:The answer has to do with piano physics.

Piano strings hit very hard exhibit distortion and chaos. The inharmonicity
increases to the point where inharmonic overtones equal or surpass
the fundamental. The strings are vibrating to the degree that they actually
distort (like a guitar).

Enharmonic distortion always occurs when two sound sources share the same transducer. Although a natural occurrence with loudspeakers, it also happens on guitar and piano soundboards, microphones and the human ear. A pipe organ is probably the only polyphonic instrument where this isn't an issue.

In short, there is no such thing as a perfect transducer in nature or man-made. Yet, somehow, we do get by.

All other things being equal, the longer the string, the greater the dynamic range, the clearer the fundamental and the less tendency to distort. Of course, a large instrument requires a big room to open up. The most famous rock'n'roll, country and easy listening piano - ever - is the 6'4" Steinway A in the old RCA Studio B in Nashville. I played it last year and just cannot imagine any other instrument in that room. A few notes and your hands just channel Floyd Cramer on "Crazy" or thousands of other hit songs featuring that instrument.

In the real world, careful placement of the mics and attention to reflected sound will have great effect the clarity in the mix.

buzzsmith · Post by **buzzsmith** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 9:50 am

mikehalloran wrote:The most famous rock'n'roll, country and easy listening piano - ever - is the 6'4" Steinway A in the old RCA Studio B in Nashville. I played it last year and just cannot imagine any other instrument in that room. A few notes and your hands just channel Floyd Cramer on "Crazy" or thousands of other hit songs featuring that instrument.

Great information, Mike!

However (as a hobbyist in music history), "Crazy" was recorded at Owen Bradley's "Quonset Hut". Floyd Cramer was the pianist and was beginning (along with Hargus "Pig" Robbins) to popularize the "slip note" piano style.

More trivia...the slip note style is actually credited to Don Robertson.
http://www.donrobertson.com/bio.htm

Just FYI!

Buzzy

MIDI Life Crisis · Post by **MIDI Life Crisis** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 11:58 am

Can you be more specific, Buzzy - maybe provide a recording sample of the issue?

What I'd want to know as your virtual piano technician is: Are you hearing this in recordings or also when listening with your ears. If it is the latter, then I'd start with mic placement or replacement. If you are hearing it live, I'd call in another tuner to verify the job that was done and also to evaluate the hammers for voicing and wear.

It could be the piano, it could be the tuning, it could be the room, and as others have indicated, it could be the mics. Do you hear the problem "live" or just in the recording?

In my former life I was a piano tuner technician and there are absolutely problems that can arise if a tuning isn't done carefully and expertly. You might not hear it at lower levels because the strings aren't vibrating at a high enough amplitude to create the problem. You might not hear it in certain chords but clearly in others.

All that said, after tuning the technician in me would suspect hammer voicing. Without getting too deep into it, hammers are rounded. When you play softly, the tips of the hammers are striking the strings. A little louder and the "shoulders" start to hit the strings. At fff the shoulders compress a bit and more of the hammer hits the strings.

Each section of the hammer has it's own density. Competent voicing involves hardening (very rarely) and softening (very common) the various parts of the hammer. The tips tend to get compacted and worn, creating grooves which eventually require the hammer be filed and possibly replaced. These grooves can also produce strange harmonics and artifacts.

Next to consider, regulation is a critical aspect. If the hammer is even slightly 'tilted' and not striking the strings perfectly straight, the strings are being hit at different velocities, in some cases just grazing the string and creating odd harmonics (odd meaning strange, not odd v. even). If the center pin bushing is worn (the center pin is one the hammer pivots on when you strike the key) the hammers 'wobbles' before hitting the string. If the escapement is out of regulation, the hammer bounces back to the string before resting. If the "backcheck" (where the hammer rests on a held key) is too high, the hammer can touch the string while at rest and create noise.

Recordings can accentuate these various problems and the field pattern of a mic can pick up things your ears cannot. Mic EQ and other specs also affect what you hear, so that you might be hearing something that moving the mic (as Mike H. has suggested) could remedy by favoring a different listening position and thereby favoring more of the fundamental tones and less of the "offensive" overtones.

Then there is the sounding board and other case elements to consider. If the board is developing a crack or other issue, loud playing will often reveal it. Check every screw and bolt on the instrument. I wouldn't touch the nose bolts (those are the ones on the cast iron plate) as you can easily crack the plate and then you are done, but do check the lid hinge screws, leg bolts, pedal assembly, etc.

But wait, there's more. The bane or every tuner is often not the piano, but something else in the room that vibrates at different rates: a picture frame, a figurine, a window pane. Sometimes the room itself is "tuned" to accentuate a frequency (as you probably already know). If that frequency is close but not right on an exact pitch, it can also cause "wolfing" in the sound of an instrument, especially a piano.

I'm almost done - almost... If you want to test a tuning the way the pros often do, play a 10th (C1 - E2, for example) chromatic scale all the way up and down the keyboard. Every 10th should sound "sweet and pure." Even one out and you've got a problem tuning. Tuners don't like clients who know about this. Expert concert/recording tuning can take as long as a couple of hours, not including fixing any regulation and voicing issues. Most "home" tuners want to get in and out in about 45 minutes. That is not going to cut it for critical tunings. In fact, pianos start to go out of tune as soon as you play the first notes on it, which is why they are often 'touched up' at intermissions of piano concerts in the better halls.

NOW I am really, really, really done!

Phil O · Post by **Phil O** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 12:26 pm

What a great post! Thanks for that lesson, MLC. I learned a lot from that.

Phil

MIDI Life Crisis · Post by **MIDI Life Crisis** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 12:40 pm

Cool Phil. Glad you didn't bite my head off!

BTW, a baby mantis found it's way into my apartment and I found it hanging out inside a lamp shade. So cool! Only like 1/2"! Hope she hangs out in my garden for the summer!

buzzsmith · Post by **buzzsmith** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 1:23 pm

Phil O wrote:What a great post! Thanks for that lesson, MLC. I learned a lot from that. Phil

I 100% agree!

This is to be printed out and saved in my studio notebook.

I know what MLC means about the 10ths. I was horribly surprised one day, not too long ago, to wander into a piano store with a few Bösendorfers. They must have all been quickly store tuned, because everyone of them failed the 10th test.

I will see if I can create a short 30 second clip, and see if anyone can hear anything.

As I mentioned before, I do have tinnitus and some frequency distortion in my hearing so it may be just me. My wife didn't hear anything really unusual and the client (long time jazz pianist) is quite pleased.

The other consideration is the ceiling height is 8' so, as mikehalloran mentioned, the sound may not be able to really open up. It's a pretty reflective room; about 20x20.

When I record, I do drape 2 producer blankets on the lid to contain some of the piano sound which cuts down on some of the reflections.

Anyway, thanks! (Getting ready to print out your post.)

Buzzy

Phil O · Post by **Phil O** » Sun Jul 24, 2011 5:49 am

Have you experimented with something on the floor, under the sound board? (I think Mike H. mentioned this already) That's a nice hardwood floor you have there - probably very reflective. Even a small scatter rug or something might change the sound. There's a retired opera singer I know who has a Steinway in her huge living room. I've recorded there on several occasions. The room is great for recording, but that piano just sounds like crap unless we put something under it. She doesn't like the look of a rug under her piano, so there's a small rug she keeps in the closet for special occasions and/or recording. The difference is like night and day.

Phil

Phil O · Post by **Phil O** » Sun Jul 24, 2011 5:58 am

MIDI Life Crisis wrote:Cool Phil. Glad you didn't bite my head off!

BTW, a baby mantis found it's way into my apartment and I found it hanging out inside a lamp shade. So cool! Only like 1/2"! Hope she hangs out in my garden for the summer!

I haven't seen any in a few years. Don't know why. I used to get them all the time.

Phil

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